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**insane4evr** · 08-18-2008, 12:53 AM

Hi gazzzwp,

I am curious how you measured the capacitance. I was expecting it to be in the nanofarad range.

Also, have you looked at JNL's WFC research?
http://jnaudin.free.fr/wfc/index.htm

Although probably irrelevant. There is also a link at the bottom of the above site for Kevin West's experiment where he used several capacitors in parallel with the water cell probably to lower the resonance frequency of the entire WFC circuit, if it really is resonating. Granted that he did not mention insulated tube, he claims to be using distilled water (non-conducting?) and modified alternators for 500 volts output.

**gazzzwp** · 08-18-2008, 07:56 AM

Capacitance of WFC

Hi

I am using a cheap LRC meter that I purchased from ebay.

To be more precise, the capacitance varies slightly between 1.2 and 0.6 micro farads.

I need to measure it over a period of time as no doubt it will change with use.

Gazza

**hhoexclusive** · 08-18-2008, 08:34 AM

i'm wanting to track down everyone who has achieved resonant condition in a cell. what can you expect to see happen as i've yet to see anyone with a good old fashion flow meter hooked up to prove that they are getting more gas output. achieving good bubbles is one thing but seeing a flowmeter rise would have me convinced much faster.

**gazzzwp** · 08-19-2008, 10:31 AM

Resonance

From what I can establish from other groups and forums - bearing in mind that I visit at least 2 forums and 4 yahoo groups where literally hundreds of people are working on this same idea, I am really not convinced that many have achieved resonance.

For a start there is acoustic/mechanical resonance of the tubes themselves, and electrical resonance caused by the interaction of inductance and capacitance in the circuit.

This I believe is the first point of confusion. Meyer's recomendation of a series inductance (variable) and an 'idealised capacitor' in the form of a water fuel cell leads me to believe that the desired outcome is electrical resonance. This concurs with Ravi's findings if you read his latest documentation.

From my college training days, the effect of electrical resonance in a series LRC circuit is that a high peak voltage is developed across the capacitor (WFC) at the critical frequency. The formula is given by:

Frequency = 1/(2 x pi x root(LxC))

where c = capacitance in Farads and L = inductance in Henries.

I am sure we are all acquainted with these principles.

The problem seems to be that very few have achieved it. Ravii apparantly has, however his cell construction and conditioning methods are highly precise, expensive and time consuming. It relies on the formation of calcium oxide on the inner tube to act as a partial insulation layer for the tubes as they act as a capacitor.

At college we achieved resonance using ac not dc. Elsewhere on the internet it says that resonance is possible using dc, but I am beginning to suspect that it is a different phenomena used mainly in tuning tesla circuits etc.

So yes, I like your question - has anyone experienced resonance, and if so, please could you descibe it's effects.

Gazza

**gazzzwp** · 08-19-2008, 01:28 PM

HV Cell Tests

Hi all

Just did some high voltage tests across my cell. My inner tubes are fully insulated using adhesive backled plastic if you recall.

I get a trickle of gas (and I mean just that - not impressive) when powering the cell by a 12V PWM variable frequency supply, boosted using a 10:1 step up transformer and then through a choke.

I get the best gas output with voltages of around 100V peak. To get this, my choke size is about 0.5H. With a much larger 18.5H choke, I can get voltages of around 400V peak, however the gas is much less. The frequency is not critical, and I get these results within a large frequency band.

Now considering my step up transformer size (10:1), I should be looking at maximum secondary voltages of only 120V peak. So the voltage magnification must be due to resonant effects, however it is not a critically tuned effect, as I have previously stated I get these voltages at a wide range of frequencies. Typically any where between 400Hz and 4Hhz.

So I conclude that the voltage is not the critical issue. To be sure, I removed the 10:1 transformer and used a car ignition coil. I tried the system out using a spark gap first to make sure it worked. Then connected my cell, and nothing - no gas at all. Now it could well be that the cell resistance is too low and it just kills the coil output. I really cannot be sure. I tried the ignition coil using a wide range of frequencies.

What I would really like is to try AC instead of DC. I am going to see if I can source a variable frequency AC supply . I suspect it will not be cheap.

Gazza

**rickoff** · 08-20-2008, 07:34 AM

A note from the man in Maine

Hi Gazza,

I have some ideas about all of this, but will hold off on them for the moment. First, I would like to see a diagram showing the actual test circuit and complete component specs that you are using (before you tried the auto coil), if you don't mind. Knowing exactly what you were using would be very helpful to the analysis.

Thanks,

Rickoff

**gazzzwp** · 08-20-2008, 09:25 AM

Circuit

Mike

Here it is - any input welcome. I think a worthwhile investment would be a variac since it is the best means I can think of of obtaining a variable inductance.

I am also looking into AC tests at the moment.

Gazza

Attached Files

WFC 2.jpg (126.5 KB, 71 views)

**insane4evr** · 08-20-2008, 02:33 PM

Hi Gazza,
Just to test if your setup will do step charging. Can you replace your WFC with a real capacitor close to the capacitance value of your WFC and rated at 500 volts or more. Maybe the microwave oven you got the transformer from has a capacitor that you can use for this test. Then you can scope across this capacitor and see what the voltage waveform is at varying frequency, mark/space to look for resonance.

**gazzzwp** · 08-20-2008, 02:57 PM

Resonance

Hi

Yes i did just that. My cell now measures a consistent 0.58 micro farads. I have 2 HV capacitors from the cannibalised microwaves each measuring 1.16 micro farads. I put two in series which makes the combined capacitance 1.16/2 = 0.58 micro farads - the same as my cell.

I have now seen the resonant effect appear across both the microwave capacitors and my fuel cell.

Using a range of chokes, the voltage peaks at around 400V, somewhere between the frequencies of 300 and 400Hz.

In fact the resonance is a bit of a non-event really, in that I was expecting a huge spike in the order of over 1000V. It is not dramatic, but slowly decreases as the frequency increases or decreases from the 350Hz mid point.

The gas production at this peak frequency is minimal, and there could be at least 2 reasons for this:

1) The adhesive backed film is over insulating.
2) The voltage is not high enough.

Achieving more volts is a problem with my equipment. Putting 2 transformers in series or parallel is what I need to try next to try and achieve more volts.

Otherwise it means dismantling my cell again and trying a different insultation. Don't really fancy the task because it is fiddly and time consuming.

I will keep you posted, but in the mean time please keep the ideas coming. As soon as I have anything hopeful I will post a video.

Gazza

**geronimo666** · 08-20-2008, 04:54 PM

I have experimented with the meyers design. I bought a cheap ebay cap meter and lcr. My readings after leaving a shorting wire on the cell overnight (I always get a voltage reading from a cell-without it being connected to power) is as follows: a seven plate Smack style in R.O.(reverse osmosis) water -160-225uF, a 3 tube (3/4", 1" by 5.5"tall) meyers style cell-7-8.6 mF and a 7-tube 11.5" cell 18mF. Running the 3 tube with a lawton circuit and chokes made out of wall transformers in appropriate Henry ranges calculated for 21Khz or 10.5 Khz the production is very weak. Off straight 12v dc car battery the amp draw is a scant .33A so the water is fairly pure-R.O. Next up I connected a 400 watt inverter and used a MOT as a choke with other chokes figuring a 120Hz frequency and the output running thru a full wave bridge recifier (4-4007diodes) and the gas boils off the unit. The voltage measured at the cell varied between 48-92 vdc because of differing choke setups and it made good gas regardless altough there were noticable differences. Looking at the occiliscope output I could not notice any particular point where resonance occured. But I would like to have some way of making a variable choke or vary frequency. Good luck to all. Thanks for the link to jnaudin's work. Very interesting.

**gazzzwp** · 08-20-2008, 07:34 PM

Variable Choke

How about a using a variac as a variable choke? Any thoughts?

**geronimo666** · 08-21-2008, 09:07 PM

Watching Water for fuel's video, YouTube - WWW. Water for Fuel . Com He shows a nice ocilloscope ramping up of voltage and gets this without coating the pipes unless I'm mistaken. Nice production for 2amps and distilled water.

**rickoff** · 08-23-2008, 09:21 AM

Some answers for you

Hi Gazza,

Sorry I wasn't able to get back to you sooner, but I do have some info that I think will be helpful to you. Here goes:

First, since your discussion topic began on a note concerning tube coating, I'll say that I agree that some type and amount of coating is definitely advantageous. The white coating that appears on the outside of cathodes that are properly conditioned is a form of calcium, and it is highly resistive to conductivity. Aaron made an excellent video regarding this, and I highly recommend it. See it at YouTube - WFC White Powder Coating from Conditioning He describes how he is able to obtain a good coating in just a day or so. As Aaron has pointed out, though, it is still possible to get some conductance at the cut ends, and inside surface, of the anodes, because very little calcium forms thereon. Thus it is best to insulate these surfaces in some way. One coating method suggested by Aaron is the use of SUPER CORONA DOPE. According to Aaron, "it is specifically for these kind of applications. Resists 4100 volts per mil, so 1 mm thick coating resists 41000 volts (baked and about 30kv+ if not baked). It is xylene. Turns into a hard glass like coating."

Secondly, I see that you, and others, are wondering about how to achieve resonance. Again, Aaron has a good answer for that. He started working on a Stan Meyer replication about 4 years ago, and is one of the very few people who have been successful at achieving HV, low amperage separation of water molecules. My own theories about the process concur with what Aaron says - "The definition of 'resonance' that I like is Tesla's definition of resonance and it is this resonance that applies to these devices: The frequency at which the least amount of current is necessary. Basically, the whole circuit is SYNCHRONIZED for optimal performance. When the circuit is in resonance, everything is synchronized optimally. Has nothing to do with the common idea of a resonant circuit. This includes every single component in the whole device ... everything from the initial input to the water cell. The circuit is not a resonant circuit. The water doesn't go into some magical resonance. The blocking diode should be telling you all something. No resonance (at least not the circuit). The voltage never drops to negative. Frequencies are important but that is a case by case situation. Based on cell spacing, material of it, voltage, etc... there will of course be optimal frequencies for each system and they will all be different. It has nothing to do with a magical frequency that water will mysteriously separate at. There are frequencies that can do that but that isn't what Meyer was doing, I don't believe. On page 1-2 [of the Meyer Tech Brief], Meyer says the LC circuit 'tuned' to resonance @ certain frequency... This doesn't have anything to do with LC resonance. This is what he means: Based on a given cap and a given inductor, there will be a certain frequency that the whole system will operate at 'peak efficiency' meaning that at that frequency, the minimum amount of current is used meaning the minimum amount of electrons. That would be EXACTLY Teslas definition of resonance. For a given cap and inductor, there will be a frequency that minimum amount of amps is used. To see what the resonant frequency is for a given setup, monitor amps input. Turn the frequency up and down. Whatever frequency the amps is at minimum going to the cap from the inductor, that IS your resonant frequency and will be different for everyone's setup. When you get the VIC in to resonance simply by tuning the frequency(no need to tune the chokes or cell) the voltage will overcome the resistance of the VIC(meaning voltage will go to it's maximum)."

Now on to the chokes, which are probably the most important components of the WFC circuit as far as design and specifications are concerned. Proper choke construction is vital to inhibiting amperage in the circuit. First off, Stan Meyer said about the chokes, "In terms of Component Reactance, Inductors (LI & IL2) should always be larger than Capacitor (ER [the water capacitor]) of Figure (7-2) in order to maximize amp restriction to enhance Voltage Deflection." With that in mind, you are going to need some relatively large chokes. Also, the choke coils, though appearing separated in the Meyer circuit diagram, are really intended to be bifilar wound on the same core. They work individually in the circuit, but also interact positively by taking advantage of the boost given by the magnetic field effect that each has upon the other. I see that the JNaudin website was mentioned in this thread, and they show an example of a bifilar choke coil about 3/4 of the way down their page at http://jnaudin.free.fr/wfc/index.htm
Their coil is insufficient to produce desired results, however, and here's why: Stan Meyer said that 11,600 ohms per choke was an adequate resistance to inhibit amps. The Naudin coil uses windings of 190 turns of #24 magnet wire on a 20mm (.79 inch) diameter cardboard tube core. That would work out to somewhere near 500 ft of wire per choke. Now #24 AWG wire has a resistance of 25.67 ohms per 1,000 ft, so the choke resistance would be less than 13 ohms. That's a far cry from the 11,600 ohms specified by Stan Meyer. To get more resistance, you can do one or both of the following: Wind more turns, and/or decrease the wire size. Both of these results in higher voltages and less amperes. Aaron suggests using #44 AWG for the choke windings. That's about the smallest wire size that can be safely worked without breakage, but unless you are an experienced coil winder then you will probably need to settle on something a little larger - say #36 to #40 AWG. You can see the wire size resistances, per 1,000 ft, for the various AWG sizes at American Wire Gauge (AWG) Wire-Size Chart
Aaron cites a good example for winding with the #44 AWG wire, and says, "Since 44awg is 2,593 ohms every 1,000ft (11,600/2,593=4.473*1000=4473) that would be 4,473ft of wire per choke. Now you might think that is a lot of wire to wind (lol, by hand yes it is.), but if you construct the chokes correctly you should be able to fit it all on, and Meyers stated that the more wraps on the chokes the more voltage you will get out of them. Now you don't have to stop at using 44awg wire, you could go smaller but it just gets more difficult to work with. Sounds like too small of a wire, huh? But it's not, because we just want voltage - not amperage." And how much voltage do we want? Stan said about 40kv at 1 ma should be the aim.

One more thing about the coils - Stan said that the best core configuration for impeding amperage is the configuration shown here:

VIC coil wrap configuration.gif - Windows Live SkyDrive

Gazza, I hope this has helped to steer you and others in the right direction. Be sure to let us all know of your future results and discoveries. Best wishes to all,

Rick

**alsy** · 08-23-2008, 01:26 PM

Your transformer could be the main weak link here

I have seen quite a few types of hydrogen from water cells with multiple plates, and have contemplated a few designs after purchasing some stainless steel from a scrap yard. I have calculated capacitance of cells similar to what other people have used. Also calculating with a few different spacing distances between plates to get some idea of the range of capacitance and what sort of frequencies i might be looking at if i were to use current inductors in my stock. I only have a vague recollection of the figures i came up with, but your capacitance seems within the crude region of some of my calculations of different designs. You capacitance reading i think to be unlikely an issue here.

I have not worked with microwaves, or microwave circuits, but do have knowledge about transformer and DC current inductor design factors. I also have a winding machine of which i am in near completion of its restoration, and the fabrication of the wire tension mechanism. As the Australian winter will soon be coming to an end here, i will begin to thaw out (well, no snow in our cities here, but a tad cold for me), and start on several ideas i have that are my own, but also some that are not. I will let you all know once i start, as the later is related to something which many here are working on at the moment.

I have seen a few salvaged microwave transformers at the flea markets and at a surplus electronics store. They claimed that is what they were. I also did a Google image search to look at a few. Chances are, that yours would be the same as all of these, and if yes, then looking at its construction, i would say it looks possible to be at least one of the main weak links. If it is, and you replaced with something the handle DC to replace the primary to secondary MW transformer, then the 2nd possible weak link, is if the inductors were not operated under their designed conditions.

-The Microwave transformers do not appear to be of a construction to indicate a design for DC current operation. If the microwave transformer had to function in a MW, and handle DC as well, it would be a fair bit larger.
The inductors you have in the circuit, need to be designed for DC operation, AND operated within their designed DC current ratings in order to maintain their inductance under those conditions.

Another important thing to know, is that if an inductor was designed for dc operation , and given a certain inductance figure by the manufacturer, it could be the inductance at the stated conditions (DC current, applied ac voltage and frequency level). It really depends on the design and operation. In practice, some may not differ much and may not matter. For some other inductors, the operation at a lower DC current, could actually have a differing inductance value, which makes it more critical for resonant frequency circuits.

If the transformer is not designed for DC current operation, the transformer core can very easily become saturated, which is another way of referring to the core becoming magnetized. When that happens, its inductance lowers, and the effective transfer from primary to secondary becomes weaker yet again. From your having mentioned the formula for circuit resonance, it will become apparent that the lower inductance due to this saturation means the resonant frequency now goes up. When the core becomes magnetized, it is slower to demagnetize than it was to magnetize it. It sort of becomes sluggish, which is what relates to its lowered inductance.
It is like if one were to clean up a big puddle of water with a sponge to near saturation, the rate of further water uptake then becomes very small compared to when it was dry. Full water logging means no more water uptake.

What i mentioned so far, is what might be the weakest link in your current trial so far, but there are also other factors that could come into play in a circuit, such as leakage inductance that will have an effect, and may need to be added into your circuit for consideration. It really depends on the circuit, and it may or may not be a practical concern.

Broadly speaking, if you use the traditionally used bulky mains power transformers which are either designed for 50 or 60 hz (depending on country), and use it in both DC, and higher frequencies, it becomes a completely different animal.

I am not meaning to deter you from experimentation. Not knowing things can sometimes lead to try more things, to do more things, and open to discover more things. That is because sometimes the known can prevent one from discovering the unknown, and it is from that perspective that i am glad that i did not learn through Academia, except for the essentials of electronics.

I did not realize i would be going this far into explaining things, but anyhow, good luck to you in your experimenting.

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