Nitrogen Hydroxide ?

[Stealth]

Now we are coming full circle. It may not be so important that we need to build the fuel to a certain explosive value, since we can ultimately use almost any fuel to run a turbine, if it is set up right. Hydrogen, nitrogen hydroxide or a combination of many gases formed together with common air. The only limitation would be power from the unit. In most cases a larger unit would suffice for a lower power output fuel to run whatever was hooked up to it. In my mind, a Tesla turbine may be the ideal turbine, just as Tesla himself suggested. Few moving parts and no RPM limitation, except for the bearings, are a real plus. I have one made from CD discs and it is amazing at the RPM range of this thing. Build one out of stainless, or better yet, ceramic, and you would have a super fuel efficient gas burning powerplant. ICE's were not built to burn a gaseous fuel. They were designed to burn liquid fuel, and not very efficiently, at that. I can see that we are progressing in the right direction for a change.Good Luck. Stealth

[sucahyo]

Carbon is what lubes the ICE inside the combustion chamber. Not oil as one would think.

I see. I guess that is one reasone for why Meyer include it in his patent, see my post at:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post83680

[Mad Scientist]

In my mind, a Tesla turbine may be the ideal turbine, just as Tesla himself suggested. Few moving parts and no RPM limitation, except for the bearings, are a real plus. I have one made from CD discs and it is amazing at the RPM range of this thing. Stealth

I agree the Tesla turbine is a fascinating engine, a few discs mounted to a drive shaft, blow some air or steam through them and it spins. How difficult can that be to make? Well once you try you will find out. Now to just make a model that spins is no problem, there are a bunch of working models that do just that. But the real trick is to make it spin efficiently.

When making a Tesla turbine one of the first things you will find out is that all of Tesla’s models were just prototypes. Thus there is precious little design information available on how to build one. He was still experimenting with the design when he lost his funding. So if you want to build his turbine you have to continue where he left off.

You need to determine what is the correct spacing for the between the discs, and this of course will depend on are you using air, steam, or some other gas. How many discs are needed? Are the bearings capable of handling the extreme high RPM? Most designs show only one nozzle feeding the turbine, but would multi-nozzles work better? What is the best way to seal the outer discs to prevent your working fluid from leaking past? Etc. etc.

Suddenly this simple little device is no longer so simple. However I have been working on the aforementioned problems and as such I have built a number of test turbines. As a result I am beginning to answer some of those questions. Now for all the machinist here that would like to try there hand at making a turbine, unlike some here, I am more then willing to share all the information that I have learned.

I have no grand illusions about trying to patent any new features and making a ton of money from them. Personally believe trying for a patent is a total waste of time and money and that they give little or no real protection. If a truly efficient design is developed making money from it should not be a problem, even if there are others doing the same thing.

[Murlin]

other engine types

Murlin,

Check out these Turbojet engines people are making from car turbos.
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...hydroxide.html

I'm sure the thrust or whatever can be used to run an electric generator.

Yes I saw those. I was already familiar with the Wankel rotary. The first turbine looks really impressive.

I was trying to assess if perhaps a system could be built by the ordinary DYI'er in his garage to use on the ICE just the way it is without any special mods.

regards,

Murlin

[Murlin]

oil in the mix

I see. I guess that is one reasone for why Meyer include it in his patent, see my post at:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post83680

Probably so. The oil will burn and leave behind carbon grains in the cylinder.

Carbon is needed in the ICE. it acts like Cornmeal on a shuffleboard. Causing the puck to glide without friction. Since carbon withstands intense heat, it will lube the piston.

I am fairly certain the first device to utilize Nitrogen Hydroxide was a very simple device that complimented carbon based fuels.

There are literally billions of ICE power plants in world wide usage. It will take 50 years before we do not need them or carbon fuels anymore.

In the mean time a small-easyto-build unit would be very nice to have....if it could be done.

A unit where you would not have to replace all internal components with costly SS ones.
And also a unit that would not require one to tear down his engine and have ports drilled, heads milled to increase compression ratio's...ect...ect...especially one that would not require one to fill their trunk up with electronics.....

People have been murdered to suppress this invention....many farmers in Australia.
Probably a few Americans too. It would be nice to see the original unit reproduced.



regards,

Murlin

[Stealth]

Mad Scientist, there is a club known as the Tesla turbine builders club. They have built lots of different designs and configurations with different tolerances. You can access their website and obtain information and stats on their builds. I have most of their information somewhere. If you can't get in their club, I am more than willing to share what I have also. Im not saying they have all the answers, but they are sharing information and coming up with some very inovative designs. Their latest build has a much improved efficiency over the the original design. Good Luck. Stealth

[Aaron]

carbon in engine

I think something like this is inexpensive enough to play with.
- Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

If the intake does need to be pressurized, that is probably the only real
serious modification that needs to be done...bracket on some kind of
pump/supercharger and I would put 100% of the exhaust to the WFC.

I disagree with the carbon necessity in an ICE.

Carbon is what wears out the engine, scratches bearing surfaces, etc...
In ICE, besides oil, liquid gasoline helps with some lubrication and not
the carbon. Race cars have incredible lubrication and they don't have
carbon buildup - the engines are stripped between races, rebuilt and there
is never time to build up any carbon.

Also, I have a proprietary additive that is methanol/xylene based and it
decarbonizes engines completely and prevents any further carbon buildup.
And, the lubrication is perfect.



In the past, gasoline was more necessary for the lubrication but with
the type of advances in synthetic oils, even propane fueled engines
(dry fuel) have no lubrication problems.

Some older engines that get decarbonized actually wrecks them but that
is because the rings or whatever are so worn down that the carbon buildup
is the only thing that is allowing for compression but the reason for most
of that wearing out of the metal was the grinding of the carbon into the
metal as an abrasive.

Vacclaisocryptene "QX" + Molybdenum Disulfide "Moly" Engine Oil Additive is the world's best oil additive. There are
always ceramics and some ceramic technology can allow an an engine to
run with zero oil - they've done it but as far as lubrication - the
qx moly has never been beat to this day and its been around for about
75 years.

It seems with water fuel that if the process is done so that h2o does
forms as a combustion by product (like all of it - straight h and o), then
that will wash away the lubrication, etc... and is bad for it.

But, if the nitrogen is destabalized enough through the air processor,
it seems that it will soak up an electrons after combustion to prevent
oxygen from bonding to hydrogen so that water is not formed. That is
a pretty profound concept that Tutanka pointed out I think. But he did
say that there is about the same water moisture made as there is with
gasoline so no problems.

[Stealth]

You can run any ICE on propane or other gases, if pressurized. Fork lifts and other ICE motors run on propane run cleaner,longer, and with far fewer oil changes. When running a gas through an ICE, it has no warm up period, no excessive carbon or other non burned fuel particles to blacken and contaminate the oil. Burning hydrogen and or nitrogen hydroxide can lead to problems. Mostly pistons and or cylinder walls become brittle burning hydrogen. This has been a problem down through the years, that amybe Stanley Meyers overcame. Maybe by adding the nitrogen, it somehow cushions or lubricates the piston-cylinder from becoming brittle. This is why most aircraft and helicopter engines are turbine. Also turbines can burn any combustable fuel, Liquid and gas. These generators are chinese copies of Briggs and Stratton engines. They have overhead valves and electronic ignition. Water or other liquid may have to be used in the combustion process if the components are not lubricated enough to withstand the hydrogen-nitrogen burn. Also you would probably have to inject straight into the intake.Good Luck. Stealth

[Murlin]

I disagree with the carbon necessity in an ICE.

Carbon is what wears out the engine, scratches bearing surfaces, etc...
In ICE, besides oil, liquid gasoline helps with some lubrication and not
the carbon. Race cars have incredible lubrication and they don't have
carbon buildup - the engines are stripped between races, rebuilt and there
is never time to build up any carbon.

I totally agree about excess carbon.

I refer back to my example of shuffleboard. Take a thin layer of cornmeal and the puck glides effortlessly down the lane. Pour an inch on the floor and you are getting nowhere fast, same goes with pouring a quart of oil on the floor...

The only place the carbon lubes is friction point where the piston contacts the cylinder wall. The excess is not desirable and must be removed from the oil and...And if it builds up to the point it raises compression and causes the piston to tighten up in the cylinder then that is not good either. there is a difference between a few grains of graphite dust and a thick hard coating.

Excess gasoline(raw fuel) cuts the rings right out of an ICE.....(a overly rich running motor will wear out just as fast as a lean, hot running motor)

I have an Inline Ford 6 cylinder engine I bought from the wrecking yard for my HHO experiments. Except I haven't worked on it in a while, but it is still mounted on its stand with a 20kw genny hooked up to it.... still waiting on me....

The intake and exhaust are on the same side of the engine and it will make it real easy to tap into the exhaust gasses....

I started out with the standard Nitrogen Hydroxide cell about 2 feet long with 4" 316 ss outer and an inner tube with 10mm clearance....

There was so much disinformation out there about all of this though, it became confusing and frustrating.

But I came to the same conclusion about the water needing to be conditioned first and not needing any salt or baking soda...way too much electrolysis....too much Chromium for me to be considered safe....But conditioning of the water and steel will keep that down to a bare minimum once the initial break in is done...

You and several others here have really done their homework on all this and my hats off to every one researching and working on this technology....

Thank you all for giving us so much more to think about and to do...

regards,

Murlin

[Aaron]

big genset

I have an Inline Ford 6 cylinder engine I bought from the wrecking yard for my HHO experiments. Except I haven't worked on it in a while, but it is still mounted on its stand with a 20kw genny hooked up to it.... still waiting on me....

That would be cool! Any pics?

[Murlin]

That would be cool! Any pics?

Ya I could take some pics of it . I didn't get it all hooked up it is just the motor on a stand with an ST 20k generator head mounted on the same stand. The cell is built, but all our testing was done with a couple smaller cells on a pickup that was already running. I still have some work to do getting the large generator running...

We failed to get the O2 sensor working with the EFI properly and so we pulled the units out of the truck and benched the project to think on it while we worked on the TS.

I kind of jump around from project to project....

I will take some pic's so you guys will know I am for real

Something tells me that I might have better chance for success now with all this new information available to me...


regards,

Murlin

[eternalightwithin]

how cheap?

How much could one expect to pay for a 4-6 cyclinder engine?
I guess it depends on the year?
Why did you go with an ECU engine and not an older mechanical one?

David

Ya I could take some pics of it . I didn't get it all hooked up it is just the motor on a stand with an ST 20k generator head mounted on the same stand. The cell is built, but all our testing was done with a couple smaller cells on a pickup that was already running. I still have some work to do getting the large generator running...

We failed to get the O2 sensor working with the EFI properly and so we pulled the units out of the truck and benched the project to think on it while we worked on the TS.

I kind of jump around from project to project....

I will take some pic's so you guys will know I am for real

Something tells me that I might have better chance for success now with all this new information available to me...


regards,

Murlin

[jibbguy]

You can get junked marine engines pretty cheap, and rebuild them, they are a good choice for a "test stand" motor, imo.

The advantages of marine Inboard or Inboard/Outboard engines stripped of the "outdrive unit" are that they have no computer, and mostly still use carbs (at least up to a few years ago last time i priced them seriously). They are most commonly seen in straight 4's or 6's; Chevy or Ford blocks are most common for the ICE varieties, and Volvo for the Diesels.

In fact there is a notorious old ICE engine called the "Atomic Four" which may be nearly ideal... That used to be common as standard gear on older sailboats, and have often been ripped out and replaced by Diesels, so they can be gotten cheap (and parts for them are still widely available). Most of those even have points ignitions lol (although there were kits to convert them to Electronic).

Many marine engines (including the Atomic 4's) will also have "open loop" outer cooling jackets so you don't need a radiator, just a garden hose to cool them without much fuss.

[Stealth]

While any ICE engine will do, you could not get a cheaper motor than a lawnmower engine. You can buy an old lawn tractor cheap. You will also get a transmission and rearend. If you need to hook up a generator or other unit the transmission and or rearend will come in handy for reduction or increasing RPM. Buy one with a recoil start and you don't even need a battery. Or, buy a small gas generator and convert it. You already have everything you need for electric generation. Good Luck.. Stealth

[Murlin]

How much could one expect to pay for a 4-6 cylinder engine?
I guess it depends on the year?
Why did you go with an ECU engine and not an older mechanical one?

300 bucks because it was just what they had on hand big enough to run that generator. I also have diesel 4 cylinder that was used to pump water I was going to put on an axle to make a portable power plant.

I have the HHO cell in a box somewhere I will have to locate it to get a pic of it.

The only thing about using a magneto engine it is a pain to move the timing you have to re key the flywheel.

I have just to twist on the distributor there on that Ford and put it where I want it

regards,

Murlin