Stanley Meyer Explained

[Oneminde]

I'm working on the calculation of right wavelength's for the GP and i'm considering a UV-C light source. The initial idea came after i was looking for a LED at 91.2 nm, but we can forget that. So the next step was 250 nm and came across UV-C bulbs that emits 150 - 270 nm.

I tought it was a good idea to investigate it. Take a look at this document:
http://www.heraeus-noblelight.com/fi.../Lampe_eng.pdf

The reason for me looking into this is that i want to be as close as possible for the first ionization level and we (I) know this:
So let’s see what we can do whit the information we have so far.

First off, we know what the energy requirements are to ionize the oxygen and the hydrogen so let’s look at that first.

• Hydrogen: 1’st level = 1312.0 kj/mol

• Oxygen; 1’st level = 1313.9 kj/mol
2’nd level = 3388.3 kj/mol
3’rd level = 5300.5 kj/mol
4’th level = 7469.2 kj/mol

What is the first we can see? We can see that first ionization level of hydrogen and oxygen is fairly close whit a difference of 1.9 kj/mol, but that is a number we can live whiteout (according to me), so therefore we can look at a combination to ionize the hydrogen and the oxygen at the same time.

According to Oxygen @ Periodic Table of Chemical Elements - Chemistry Online Education the first ionization level of oxygen is:

• 13.617 eV = 109833 cm-1 = 1313.9 kJ/mol for oxygen and
• 13.598 eV = 109674 cm-1 = 1312.0 kJ/mol for hydrogen

The difference between these two are .019eV and I don’t think that we need to look for that a small difference.
So let’s convert eV to nm so we can find the right light source for this.

For the hydrogen we need a 91.2 nm wavelength and that should work well for the oxygen ionization as well.
So where can we find such a diode/LED?

To use such a light sourch is tuff to find, we are talkning about ultraviolet C (UVC = 100-280 nm) or vacuum ultraviolet (VUV = 10-200 nm) – to develop a a light sourch that deliver these kind of wavelengths whould be expensive, so lets look at an alternative.

This is from a responce i did over at oupower.com:

”To ionize (remove) a hydrogen atom from a water molecule, it takes 13.6 eV (electron volts), or a photon of wavelength 91.2nm (nanometers). (Note: Visible light is roughly 380nm starting ultraviolet, to 750nm starting into infrared. The shorter the wavelength, the higher the energy level.) Some interesting research has been conducted that would seem to modify this rule, and sees results at 250nm.”
OUPower.com :: View topic - Light wavelength and electrolysis and
Directory:Using Light Finesse Instead of Brute Force in Water Molecule Dissociation - PESWiki

Now look closly, do you see that 91.2 nm is the same recuierments as to remove a one hydrogen from a watermolecule? Interesting right.

So if we consider this information, 150 - 270 nm whould work great right? That also means that we need to re-think the GP. Now let's say that we do this, what would the outcome be?

I would build a unit for the first ionization level, where two UV-C lightbulbs are placed - maby use a small squared box whit it's own EEC - but these bulbs dont get pulsed. After this step the next ionization levels of the GP, that is when we use ordenary LED's.
I'm still working on the calculation of them so i'll get back to you when i know more, later today, but i want you to reflect this befor you trow it away. Give me some feadback on this - if it is something to consider or not!

Don't say "it's your rule" or something like that, give positive feedback.

[Oneminde]

Tron?

Am i thinking wrong?

TRON wrote:

“About correct photon wavelength.”

There are certain photon wavelengths (visible spectrum) that will not eject an electron from its first orbit, only the resonant frequency, high voltage magnetic fields will help elongate the orbits and weaken the attraction between the electron and its proton in the first stage, after that most hydrogen atoms use anything from 640 nm to 240 nm to do this. But you must have the pulsing high voltage (2000 VDC) fields to assist. Sparking is a problem with hydrogen, so H2oPower is correct in using the ionized ambient air and NOT hydrogen gases in the EEC /Gas Processor. BOOM! So understand that after stressing the ambient air with high voltage fields, most photon wavelengths will kick the electrons into other higher orbital states or even knock them completely loose, that the closer the wavelength (smaller number) the higher amount of energy the photon has to do the kicking. Problem is that 240 nm is about the smallest wavelength we have at the moment and they are very expensive. I would try with the 28 cent LED's at 490 nm first (ultraviolet, barely visible) before spending the big bucks n a more powerful gas processor. Unless you want to of course!, please POST your results... The hydrogen model / applet is just something that I found that will help understand the easier Hydrogen atoms reaction to pure photon energy as a starting point. Since the neutral ground state of oxygen is with 2 atoms and 4 shared electrons in the second orbit ( I think) I believe that diatomic oxygen is harder to process. so higher voltages, shorter wavelengths and the EEC Screen closer to the output of the gas processor to extract the electrons while they are still free... might need to use a neon bulb or some other bulb to see the extracted electrons perform work... and remember there’s a resonant frequency that must be found for oxygen that is different than the frequency for water, or hydrogen.... nobody said this would be easy!

Are you talking about the HV feild in the GP and that this is needed in order to push the electron's to an outer orbit and THEN remove it???

Becouse this is the numbers for oxygen if we want to ionize it:

O> O1 = 91.2 nm
O1 > O2 = 35.3 nm
O2 > O3 = 22.6 nm
O3 > O4 = 16 nm

Wow... that's just not going to work, i stand corrected. Unless you use VUV.. hmm

[CPU3rother]

@Oneminde

My first thought after studying this was that shorter wavelengths would work best. However UVC is as short as I could find in a coherent source. The good news is that Stan likely didn't even get to below 400nm. If I understand correct even the wrong wavelengths will be absorbed by oxygen but the probability of absorption changes. From what I have read oxygen will even absorb light outside the UV spectrum but it has a higher probability in the UV-EUV range 10-400nm. I did locate some reasonable priced LEDs in the UVC range and was considering using them at the business end of the GP. h2o has some better insight into this as he has been studing it longer than I.

The Spectroscopy Net

UV-VIS Absorption Spectra of Gaseous Molecules and Radicals: Catalogue

Even in the microwave band
http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/hand...pdf?sequence=1

[TRON]

I have two questions about the GP:

1: Why do you and why did Meyer use such thick walls on the negativ part - is there a surten reason why this is?

Eliminate a source for electrons

2: EEC; How do we/you know that only one eec is enough (placed near the outlet)? Whould it make any different to have more of them, maby in different levels. The reason for my question is that ionization last for a short perriod of time - 50% has fallen back whitin 0.7 sec so, the next question is.

Electron Extraction grid is in close proximity to voltage zones and LED lamps

3: How long does the first ionization last and then the 2´nd etc if we also consider the airflow/suction from the engine.
IF the first ionizations occur whitin the 0.00 - 0.03 sec - how fast whould that gas state have traveled befor it fals back to "stabel state"?

Air is slowly moving in Gas Processor, output is 1/3 (approximate) of total mixture sent to 4 INJECTORS via mixing chamber and pump at 125 psi. NOT THRU INTAKE MANIFOLD.... regular outside air goes in thru there...

When we (i) contemplate the GP i also see that everything is happening very fast, accordning to the numbers the hole process needs to be complete whitin a timeframe of 0.35 sec if we whant to be close to 100%.

You can never be 100%, even if you series connect many GPs
Example start with 100%...1st GP extracts 50%...next GP extracts 50% of that (25% of total) next GP extracts 50% of that ( 12.5% of total) next GP extracts 50% of that....and on and on... each time 1/2 of whats left to process is conditioned..each time the sample gets smaller... all the while removing electrons from the mixtures... maybe 95% at some point??? (after 8 stages) is it really needed? try it and see... you might wait until the next 4th of july holiday to avoid suspician when your backyard goes 200 feet into the air!

[TRON]

I have two questions about the GP:

1: Why do you and why did Meyer use such thick walls on the negativ part - is there a surten reason why this is?

2: EEC; How do we/you know that only one eec is enough (placed near the outlet)? Whould it make any different to have more of them, maby in different levels. The reason for my question is that ionization last for a short perriod of time - 50% has fallen back whitin 0.7 sec so, the next question is.

3: How long does the first ionization last and then the 2´nd etc if we also consider the airflow/suction from the engine.
IF the first ionizations occur whitin the 0.00 - 0.03 sec - how fast whould that gas state have traveled befor it fals back to "stabel state"?

When we (i) contemplate the GP i also see that everything is happening very fast, accordning to the numbers the hole process needs to be complete whitin a timeframe of 0.35 sec if we whant to be close to 100%.

1.Eliminate a source for electrons

2.Electron Extraction grid is in close proximity to voltage zones and LED lamps

3.Air is slowly moving in Gas Processor, output is 1/3 (approximate) of total mixture sent to 4 INJECTORS via mixing chamber and pump at 125 psi. NOT THRU INTAKE MANIFOLD.... regular outside air goes in thru there...

[TRON]

carburetor...

@h2opower
I can see your point. I'm just looking for a way to fit this into my situation. I have an old car that is carbureted that is waiting for conversion. Since this is what I have to work with I'm looking for an easy delivery system for that car. That is why I'm considering Water only through the injector and air and EG through the carb. I think that this is one of the ways to get the mixture into the cylinder. It would be about as safe because the water and air wouldn't be mixed until inside the cylinder. Doing some rough math the intake speeds would be plenty even at idle, but I'm thinking that the O+ would stabilize as it makes contact with the grounded Carb, intake manifold, valves ect. Anyone have some thoughts on this?

Why complicate things... keep it simple...keep the carb, disconnect the fuel line, turn off the gasoline pump...

spark plugs are replaced with Water Fuel injectors ...

maybe you can insulate every bolt on the manifold with a nylon insert and plastic washer and special gaskets... i think the nylon would melt with high engine temperature

[TRON]

nope... you are on the right path

Am i thinking wrong?

TRON wrote:

“About correct photon wavelength.”

There are certain photon wavelengths (visible spectrum) that will not eject an electron from its first orbit, only the resonant frequency, high voltage magnetic fields will help elongate the orbits and weaken the attraction between the electron and its proton in the first stage, after that most hydrogen atoms use anything from 640 nm to 240 nm to do this. But you must have the pulsing high voltage (2000 VDC) fields to assist. Sparking is a problem with hydrogen, so H2oPower is correct in using the ionized ambient air and NOT hydrogen gases in the EEC /Gas Processor. BOOM! So understand that after stressing the ambient air with high voltage fields, most photon wavelengths will kick the electrons into other higher orbital states or even knock them completely loose, that the closer the wavelength (smaller number) the higher amount of energy the photon has to do the kicking. Problem is that 240 nm is about the smallest wavelength we have at the moment and they are very expensive. I would try with the 28 cent LED's at 490 nm first (ultraviolet, barely visible) before spending the big bucks n a more powerful gas processor. Unless you want to of course!, please POST your results... The hydrogen model / applet is just something that I found that will help understand the easier Hydrogen atoms reaction to pure photon energy as a starting point. Since the neutral ground state of oxygen is with 2 atoms and 4 shared electrons in the second orbit ( I think) I believe that diatomic oxygen is harder to process. so higher voltages, shorter wavelengths and the EEC Screen closer to the output of the gas processor to extract the electrons while they are still free... might need to use a neon bulb or some other bulb to see the extracted electrons perform work... and remember there’s a resonant frequency that must be found for oxygen that is different than the frequency for water, or hydrogen.... nobody said this would be easy!

Are you talking about the HV feild in the GP and that this is needed in order to push the electron's to an outer orbit and THEN remove it???

Becouse this is the numbers for oxygen if we want to ionize it:

O> O1 = 91.2 nm
O1 > O2 = 35.3 nm
O2 > O3 = 22.6 nm
O3 > O4 = 16 nm

Wow... that's just not going to work, i stand corrected. Unless you use VUV.. hmm

simply understand... with smaller wavelength its possible to reduce the gap and voltage in the GP, with red LEDs , Stan had to use a large gap in the GP and a really high voltage to get those electron clouds to elongate far enough away from the proton for the PHOTONS to be able to enter the inner sanctum of the atom and energize the proton charge, thus kicking the electrons out of orbit for .75 seconds...

good questions!

[TRON]

New Idea For Retrofit ???

Instead of 4 injectors, 4 delivery valves , an accelerator controller, a pulsing distributor to time the delivery valves........

throw all that out of the design... keep the carburetor, turn off the gasoline supply, keep the existing spark plugs, Make one large Taper resonant cavity injector to sit on top of the center of the opening to the carb, with air flowing in according to throttle butterfly demand... and simply regulate the power of the engine as a gas carb would !

Might be a brilliant idea!

maybe all we need is a GP, a mixing chamber, one delivery valve that stays open while the ignition key is on, and a fuel pump to send a constand supply of water fuel mix to the top of the carb...

let engine vaccumm suck in what it needs!

no need to worry about electrons entering the ionized air because the reaction has already occured before in the large SINGLE INJECTOR

I remember chevy had some mid sized cars with a single electric fuel injector right in the middle of the carb intake instead of injectors for each cylinder...

ANY THOUGHTS ?

Of course if the VIC causes an automatic explosion of the water fuel as it leaves the tip of the injector... then this idea is useless... but what if we could make the injector a straight passage without the compressional wave... might work if enough volume made it to the combustion chamber

WHY DIDNT I THINK OF THIS BEFORE??

SURE SOLVES A LOT OF DESIGN ISSUES... AND MAKES IT EASIER TO ADAPT TO ANY ENGINE... they ALL have an intake... and they ALL have a throttle butterfly !

COMMENTS PLEASE ( i love it when i get these brainstorms...)

[h20power]

I have two questions about the GP:

1: Why do you and why did Meyer use such thick walls on the negativ part - is there a surten reason why this is?

2: EEC; How do we/you know that only one eec is enough (placed near the outlet)? Whould it make any different to have more of them, maby in different levels. The reason for my question is that ionization last for a short perriod of time - 50% has fallen back whitin 0.7 sec so, the next question is.

3: How long does the first ionization last and then the 2´nd etc if we also consider the airflow/suction from the engine.
IF the first ionizations occur whitin the 0.00 - 0.03 sec - how fast whould that gas state have traveled befor it fals back to "stabel state"?

When we (i) contemplate the GP i also see that everything is happening very fast, accordning to the numbers the hole process needs to be complete whitin a timeframe of 0.35 sec if we whant to be close to 100%.

Most of what you ask has to be tested out but the gas speeds inside of the intake system are fairly fast so I am not worried about getting the mixture in the combustion chamber in time befor it decays. As for the decay inside of the GP that is why the LED's pulsing is oppsite that of the GP pulsing so the atoms don't get a break, there is no rest time for the atoms as they pass through the Gas Processor. And to top that off a great percentage of the electrons that where stripped off are consumed by the EEC so the gases can not return to a stable state inside of the intake system.

When it comes to the wave lengths we have to look at what did Stanley Meyer had to use in his time. Most of what I found out about the LEDs in his time is there where no ultra violet LEDs or White LEDs for Stanley Meyer to use, and the ones he did have to use where very weak in that you could look at it and not damage you eyes. Compare that to the LEDs we have to use today we can do a much better job than what Stanley Meyer could have done, for if you look into one of the top LEDs today more than likely you will lose the sight in that eye perminetly or at the very least suffer some damage that will be with you for life. We have many more wavelengths to pick from than Stanley Meyer did in his time. The wavelengths I chose are best guesses from my research on what wavelengths to use, nothing more. But I can swap out LEDs at any time with ease with my design, so if some or all I chose isn't working for me I can replace them with other combinations. Lots of trial and error still left to do, but the corrections are easy. Also the wavelengths I picked fall on oxygens absorbtion scale, but as I said before there is no way to tell which wavelengths corrispond to which energy levels or even if it is a group of wave lengths that make it happen which I belive to be the case. I belive it is more than just one wave length that effects each level of the oxygen electron shells. In time after the technology has been accepted by the world someone will figure out just what combination of wave lengths will effect each and every level of the oxygen atom. So for now all we can do is make edjucated guesses as to what wavelengths will work best for us.

The only way to make sure of the different wavelengths is to have access to some very high level equipment, for remember when an energy level is gained there is no indication it has gained until it falls back down. I don't have access to that kind of equipment, since we are pioneers in this field we have to make due with what we got.

As for the carberator I sent a pm to the one asking that should help him out with it, and if he wants to share what I wrote to him it's fine by me. For once you understand just what is going on it is easy to see the many different risk factors involved with different placements of the mixture through out the system with concern to when it is mixed to form the combustable mixture. I have already went over the risk of each way that I know of how to run differnet engine designs in the thead. But for each different way there is a different risk of backfires through the intake system. The WFI as per the way Stanley Meyer made them are just about as risk free as one can get and done that way is far safer than the current way gasoline is being used today. So if you can live with the risk you have in your cars today then you can weigh out the risk of different methods of mixing the mixture than just that of which Stanley Meyer shown us.

Hope that helps even though I left a lot of question unanswered,

h2opower.

[CPU3rother]

Why complicate things... keep it simple...keep the carb, disconnect the fuel line, turn off the gasoline pump...

spark plugs are replaced with Water Fuel injectors ...

maybe you can insulate every bolt on the manifold with a nylon insert and plastic washer and special gaskets... i think the nylon would melt with high engine temperature

I can see why he just bypased the existing fuel system. I just needed to think outloud and hear the arguments for myself.

simply understand... with smaller wavelength its possible to reduce the gap and voltage in the GP, with red LEDs , Stan had to use a large gap in the GP and a really high voltage to get those electron clouds to elongate far enough away from the proton for the PHOTONS to be able to enter the inner sanctum of the atom and energize the proton charge, thus kicking the electrons out of orbit for .75 seconds...

good questions!

Sounds right. with todays tec you could ionize the oxygen just with light without the voltage zones. although it would not be practical. I did read an artiacle that said they ionized oxygen with just 3 photons in the 190-210 nm range.

[CPU3rother]

Instead of 4 injectors, 4 delivery valves , an accelerator controller, a pulsing distributor to time the delivery valves........

throw all that out of the design... keep the carburetor, turn off the gasoline supply, keep the existing spark plugs, Make one large Taper resonant cavity injector to sit on top of the center of the opening to the carb, with air flowing in according to throttle butterfly demand... and simply regulate the power of the engine as a gas carb would !

Might be a brilliant idea!


WHY DIDNT I THINK OF THIS BEFORE??


COMMENTS PLEASE ( i love it when i get these brainstorms...)

That is why I was thinking out loud because it helps me to look from new prospective. I thought of something similar to what you are describing. A few adjustments valves to keep it running at idle and it could work. the only drawback as h2o pointed out, is that you are mixing outside the cylinder so backfire could potentially become a safety concern.

[h20power]

Instead of 4 injectors, 4 delivery valves , an accelerator controller, a pulsing distributor to time the delivery valves........

throw all that out of the design... keep the carburetor, turn off the gasoline supply, keep the existing spark plugs, Make one large Taper resonant cavity injector to sit on top of the center of the opening to the carb, with air flowing in according to throttle butterfly demand... and simply regulate the power of the engine as a gas carb would !

Might be a brilliant idea!

maybe all we need is a GP, a mixing chamber, one delivery valve that stays open while the ignition key is on, and a fuel pump to send a constand supply of water fuel mix to the top of the carb...

let engine vaccumm suck in what it needs!

no need to worry about electrons entering the ionized air because the reaction has already occured before in the large SINGLE INJECTOR

I remember chevy had some mid sized cars with a single electric fuel injector right in the middle of the carb intake instead of injectors for each cylinder...

ANY THOUGHTS ?

Of course if the VIC causes an automatic explosion of the water fuel as it leaves the tip of the injector... then this idea is useless... but what if we could make the injector a straight passage without the compressional wave... might work if enough volume made it to the combustion chamber

WHY DIDNT I THINK OF THIS BEFORE??

SURE SOLVES A LOT OF DESIGN ISSUES... AND MAKES IT EASIER TO ADAPT TO ANY ENGINE... they ALL have an intake... and they ALL have a throttle butterfly !

COMMENTS PLEASE ( i love it when i get these brainstorms...)

Don't think of it as a large injector but just moving the voltage zone around in the system, for that is why I say it is the mixture that is important for it can be mixed in different areas of the intake system, but with different voltage zone placements comes a different risk factors. The length of the voltae zone becomes very important as to the amount of water it has to deal with and the time it has to deal with it. For once the water mist passes the voltage zone and is mixed with the ionized air gases it is explosive from that point on throughout the system. That is the point I am trying to get accross to everyone. Once you know when the mixture becomes explosive you know the different risk involed moving the voltage zone(s) around in the system. Driving our everyday gasoline engines have a risk of blowing up that we can live with, and so too does the water for fuel technology.

Now you have to ask yourselves, "just what is the voltage zone doing to the atomized water mist that flows through it?" And, "What can you do to help the water mist transform into even smaller droplets using our knowlege of the phase diagram of water?" Answering these questions gives you some insight to what Stanley Meyer and others did to aid the process.


h2opower.

[Oneminde]

CPU3rother

Can you post the articel about 190 - 210 nm ionization? Sounds interesting

Hydrogen Atom Simulator - Hydrogen Energy Levels - NAAP
I tested 122 nm and that moves the electrone one lvl, and then hit it again and the hydrogen was ionized.... that is closer to something realistic maby

[h20power]

Can you post the articel about 190 - 210 nm ionization? Sounds interesting

Hydrogen Atom Simulator - Hydrogen Energy Levels - NAAP
I tested 122 nm and that moves the electrone one lvl, and then hit it again and the hydrogen was ionized.... that is closer to something realistic maby

This is one reason I moved away from wavelenths that high for it is not in keeping with the laws of ecconomics: SpectrEcology Online Store for UV LEDS, cuvettes, Ocean Optics spectrometers : 240nm UV LED T039 UVTOP

Please note the cost of such a LED and note that I used 96 of them same as Stanley Meyer's HGG so that would have cost me $29,664 bucks just for the LEDs shipping not included. So keep your research within reach of what you can afford, Stanley Meyer's law of ecconomics.


h2opower.

[CPU3rother]

Can you post the articel about 190 - 210 nm ionization? Sounds interesting

Hydrogen Atom Simulator - Hydrogen Energy Levels - NAAP
I tested 122 nm and that moves the electrone one lvl, and then hit it again and the hydrogen was ionized.... that is closer to something realistic maby

Absolute two-photon absorption and three-photon ionization cross sections for at

This is the title let me see if I can locate the free artical.

It was just relating to Oxygen not hydrogen.