Stanley Meyer Explained

[bussi04]

Sorry my typo, you did what I wanted.

"Switching frequency > 5500 hz >> U4 pin 13 high"
do you mean
"Switching frequency < 5500 hz >> U4 pin 13 high" ?

If yes, the phase comparator works.

Then do the mods in my previous post, use RV7 to adjust to the center freuency.

Then you should see:

1. The pulse train at U4 pin 13
2. steady logic "0" at U8 pin 4
3. no light in D6

And this should be maintained, even though you dial RV7.

Please replace R15 to 4K7, and connect to U7 pin 11 instead of U8 pin 4.
Now D6 should indicate locked OK.

Eric

@tecstatic
status:
U8 pin 5 reconnected to U8 pin 6
Pin 2 of RV7 connected to VCC
U2 in circuit again
Set center frequency to 5600 hz
R15 = 4.7 KOhm
R15 cut off from U8 pin 4 and connected to U7 pin 11

At less than 5750 hz at U8 pin 4 there are spikes, at more than 5750 hz steady 0 at U8 pin 4

[h20power]

H2O, Super

Do you have at hand the frequencies of mercury ?
I once saw a site where I could look all this up, but now I can't remember where.

I also saw somewhere that Stan had several GPs in series, maybe he raised the ionization level in each of the GPs.

Eric

Hi Eric,
Here is the site for that: Spectra of Gas Discharges
It's the last one at the end of the page.


h2opower.

[bussi04]

Sorry my typo, you did what I wanted.

"Switching frequency > 5500 hz >> U4 pin 13 high"
do you mean
"Switching frequency < 5500 hz >> U4 pin 13 high" ?

If yes, the phase comparator works.

Then do the mods in my previous post, use RV7 to adjust to the center freuency.

Then you should see:

1. The pulse train at U4 pin 13
2. steady logic "0" at U8 pin 4
3. no light in D6

And this should be maintained, even though you dial RV7.

Please replace R15 to 4K7, and connect to U7 pin 11 instead of U8 pin 4.
Now D6 should indicate locked OK.

Eric

@tecstatic
D6 is off but not in all frequency ranges. at > 6000 hz itīs on and < 4250 hz itīs on else off.
itīs difficult to preset frequency by RV7 because there is some regulation now.

bussi04

[Tecstatic]

@tecstatic
status:
U8 pin 5 reconnected to U8 pin 6
Pin 2 of RV7 connected to VCC
U2 in circuit again
Set center frequency to 5600 hz
R15 = 4.7 KOhm
R15 cut off from U8 pin 4 and connected to U7 pin 11

At less than 5750 hz at U8 pin 4 there are spikes, at more than 5750 hz steady 0 at U8 pin 4

As I'm not sitting next to you watching the circuit, I would like more details.

Please report what happens when doing this:

Dial RV7 to 0V
Turn off power.
Turn on power.
Dial RV7 to "resonant" frequency, D6 should now emit light.
Dial RV7 to 0V, D6 should still be on, and frequency should be locked.

We should be very close now.

Eric

[bussi04]

As I'm not sitting next to you watching the circuit, I would like more details.

Please report what happens when doing this:

Dial RV7 to 0V
Turn off power.
Turn on power.
Dial RV7 to "resonant" frequency, D6 should now emit light.
Dial RV7 to 0V, D6 should still be on, and frequency should be locked.

We should be very close now.

Eric

@tecstatic
dialing to 0V:
Dialing RV7 to 0V means that U6B gets active and 2V pulses at 4418 hz get switched to U4 pin 9. D6 on.
power off.
power on:
D6 on. 4665 hz.
Dial RV7 to resonant frequency - already done after startup
Dial RV7 to 0V: D6 still on, 4430 hz, U6B active

bussi04

[Tecstatic]

At less than 5750 hz at U8 pin 4 there are spikes, at more than 5750 hz steady 0 at U8 pin 4

Please specify, spikes at a regular frequency (same as on U4 pin 1), or happening irregularly.

If at a regular frequency, then the R15 * C11 time constant is too short.
What are the R15, C11 values ?

As soon as you see me writing of a component check or modification, please put component values in the log, else I can not diagnose efficiently.

Thank you for the last report, now lets get the R15, C11 issue fixed.

If the time constant is too short, the spikes will appear at the U4 pin 1 frequency so U6 switches between C10 and RV7.

After D6 on can you then affect the frequency with RV7 ?

Eric

[bussi04]

I made an error!

@tecstatic
dialing to 0V:
Dialing RV7 to 0V means that U6B gets active and 2V pulses at 4418 hz get switched to U4 pin 9. D6 on.
power off.
power on:
D6 on. 4665 hz.
Dial RV7 to resonant frequency - already done after startup
Dial RV7 to 0V: D6 still on, 4430 hz, U6B active

bussi04

@tecstatic
there was no connection between C10 and pin 3 of U6B.

repeating the test:
dialing to 0V:
Dialing RV7 to 0V means that U6B gets active and 2V pulses at 4436 hz get switched to U4 pin 9. D6 on.
power off.
power on:
D6 on. 4672 hz.
Dial RV7 to resonant frequency - already done after startup
Dial RV7 to 0V: D6 still on, 4438hz, U6B active

same result.

bussi04

[bussi04]

@tecstatic
there was no connection between C10 and pin 3 of U6B.

repeating the test:
dialing to 0V:
Dialing RV7 to 0V means that U6B gets active and 2V pulses at 4436 hz get switched to U4 pin 9. D6 on.
power off.
power on:
D6 on. 4672 hz.
Dial RV7 to resonant frequency - already done after startup
Dial RV7 to 0V: D6 still on, 4438hz, U6B active

same result.

bussi04

@tecstatic
U8 pin 5 reconnected to U8 pin 6
Pin 2 of RV7 connected to VCC
U2 in circuit again
Set center frequency to 5600 hz
R15 = 4.7 KOhm
R15 cut off from U8 pin 4 and connected to U7 pin 11
C10 connected to pin3 of U6B
R14 (you mentioned R15) = 100 KOhm
C11 = 1 nF

it was regular spikes. I try to repeat producing the signal. no success up yet.

bussi04

[bussi04]

@tecstatic
U8 pin 5 reconnected to U8 pin 6
Pin 2 of RV7 connected to VCC
U2 in circuit again
Set center frequency to 5600 hz
R15 = 4.7 KOhm
R15 cut off from U8 pin 4 and connected to U7 pin 11
C10 connected to pin3 of U6B
R14 (you mentioned R15) = 100 KOhm
C11 = 1 nF

yes I can affect the frequency by changing RV7.

bussi04

[bussi04]

@tecstatic
U8 pin 5 reconnected to U8 pin 6
Pin 2 of RV7 connected to VCC
U2 in circuit again
Set center frequency to 5600 hz
R15 = 4.7 KOhm
R15 cut off from U8 pin 4 and connected to U7 pin 11
C10 connected to pin3 of U6B
R14 (you mentioned R15) = 100 KOhm
C11 = 1 nF

it was regular spikes. I try to repeat producing the signal. no success up yet.

bussi04

when C11 = 93 nF then there are those positive spikes from 5600 to 6200 hz at U8 pin 4.

bussi04

[Tecstatic]

Hi bussi,

I know its late, that communication is difficult, and I may seem knitty picky, but...

To me your reporting is ambiguous.

1. Please, Could you have an up to date modification log in an open editor window and paste it into every single reply you make. (now in your latest post, thanks )

2. Before submitting a reply please make a preview and scroll down to see if I have posted once more, else we easily loose a logic sequence.

For my part I may just issue too many directions and too few explanations.

What is important is that when a lock situation appears, it is remembered with a steady "1" on U8 pin 5,6.

If not a steady then U6 switches back and forth between C10 voltage and VR7 voltage.

For this we need correct values of R14, C11.

You report R14=100Kohm, C11=1nF (time constant= 100K*1n= 100us)

So now I know you do not have C11=10nF as stated in the diagram 0.5.
You did not change C11 to at least 22n.
The time constant must be at least 200us.

We might have an issue for the test, because we load U7 pin 3 too hard with C11.
Add a 1kohm resistor in series with D5.

Dialing RV7 to 0V means that U6B gets active and 2V pulses at 4436 hz get switched to U4 pin 9. D6 on.

You have seen it on the scope, I have not.

I sit with the questions.
Is it the C10 voltage switching or is it U6 switching back and forth ?
What is the waveform, duty cycle ?

Please answer the question:
After D6 on can you then affect the frequency with RV7 ?
OK, now I see your answer in a later post.
Either the U6 is bad, or U8 pin 3 is not stable "1".

when C11 = 93 nF then there are those positive spikes from 5600 to 6200 hz at U8 pin 4.

Again I sit with the question why. How is the signal on U4 pin 1 then ?

----------------------------

I just wonder if we can throw away U3, U2B and U6, just having the midpoint of R12, R13 connected to U4 pin 9. The 4046 makes the scan itself.

And without precisely dimensioned components it will not work anyway. So this could simplify the board.

Eric

[bussi04]

Hi bussi,

I know its late, that communication is difficult, and I may seem knitty picky, but...

To me your reporting is ambiguous.

1. Please, Could you have an up to date modification log in an open editor window and paste it into every single reply you make. (now in your latest post, thanks )

2. Before submitting a reply please make a preview and scroll down to see if I have posted once more, else we easily loose a logic sequence.

For my part I may just issue too many directions and too few explanations.

What is important is that when a lock situation appears, it is remembered with a steady "1" on U8 pin 5,6.

If not a steady then U6 switches back and forth between C10 voltage and VR7 voltage.

For this we need correct values of R14, C11.

You report R14=100Kohm, C11=1nF (time constant= 100K*1n= 100us)

So now I know you do not have C11=10nF as stated in the diagram 0.5.
You did not change C11 to at least 22n.
The time constant must be at least 200us.

We might have an issue for the test, because we load U7 pin 3 too hard with C11.
Add a 1kohm resistor in series with D5.



You have seen it on the scope, I have not.

I sit with the questions.
Is it the C10 voltage switching or is it U6 switching back and forth ?
What is the waveform, duty cycle ?

Please answer the question:
After D6 on can you then affect the frequency with RV7 ?
OK, now I see your answer in a later post.
Either the U6 is bad, or U8 pin 3 is not stable "1".



Again I sit with the question why. How is the signal on U4 pin 1 then ?

----------------------------

I just wonder if we can throw away U3, U2B and U6, just having the midpoint of R12, R13 connected to U4 pin 9. The 4046 makes the scan itself.

And without precisely dimensioned components it will not work anyway. So this could simplify the board.

Eric

@tecstatic

Hi eric,
sorry, we have to interrupt for some hours.
reason: when I have added the resistor to D5 the center frequency has changed to 1100 hz. I think a wire lost connection on the breadboard or beneath the pcb. I canīt find the error at the moment.
so I suggest to make an interrupt. I get the frequency restored and then I answer your questions from your recent post.
CU
bussi04

[Tecstatic]

@tecstatic

Hi eric,
sorry, we have to interrupt for some hours.
reason: when I have added the resistor to D5 the center frequency has changed to 1100 hz. I think a wire lost connection on the breadboard or beneath the pcb. I canīt find the error at the moment.
so I suggest to make an interrupt. I get the frequency restored and then I answer your questions from your recent post.
CU
bussi04

Hi bussi

See my predictions about the U6 switchover design problems, has become more true than I may like.

OK, lets continue after some sleep for my part.
Thank you for the hard work, we got far in fault finding the last few hours
With a little luck it runs tomorrow.

By the way remember that the 40xx series is very sensitive to electrostatic discharge, so have a proper ground attached to your solder iron and all your instruments, else you easily destroy the ICs. To me it is essential to have a slightly conductive mat on the table, the mat also being grounded.

Whenever returning to the electronics after a walk, discharge yourself before touching the PCB each and every time. Failing to do so you may end up pulling your hair out because more or less faulty ICs having very strange error behavior.

You can in addition to the mat use a grounded wrist strap also an anti static piece of equipment for sale.

I check in again in 7-10 hours.

Eric

[Tecstatic]

Hi bussi,

Just one more thing.

Generally a 1nF capacitor or larger should not be directly connected to a logic input. Here we can use a 1kohm resistor between the capacitor and the logic input.

The direct connection can harm the input protection diodes during a fast power down.

Eric

[bussi04]

@tecstatic

Hi eric,
sorry, we have to interrupt for some hours.
reason: when I have added the resistor to D5 the center frequency has changed to 1100 hz. I think a wire lost connection on the breadboard or beneath the pcb. I canīt find the error at the moment.
so I suggest to make an interrupt. I get the frequency restored and then I answer your questions from your recent post.
CU
bussi04

@tecstatic


U8 pin 5 reconnected to U8 pin 6
Pin 2 of RV7 connected to VCC
U2 in circuit again
Set center frequency to 5600 hz
R15 = 4.7 KOhm
R15 cut off from U8 pin 4 and connected to U7 pin 11
C10 connected to pin3 of U6B
R14 = 100 KOhm
C11 = 30 nF
D5 in series with Resistor 1 KOhm
Inserted Resistor 1 KOhm between C11 and pin5/6 of U8

No ESD protection

Now Iīm alive again. At my last post I was no longer able to work - too tired ...

I found the frequency problem:
CD4046 and CD4024 got power supply dropped to 2.5V due to being plugged to the breadboard. Now power is re-established and center frequency at 5600 hz again.
Itīs bad working condition to connect breadboard and pcb with wires an turn around pcb for soldering etc. easily single wires can loose connection. I must be alert towards that problem ...

but now to your questions:
“Dialing RV7 to 0V means that U6B gets active and 2V pulses at 4436 hz get switched to U4 pin 9. D6 on.”

It was the C10 voltage switching. U6 didnīt switch back and forth.
It was rectangular waveform, 50% duty cycle at oscillation frequency of U4 pin 4.
Now with C11=30 nF and Resistor the behaviour canīt be reproduced.

Now Iīm mobile until 12.00 am.
To be continued …

bussi04