Stanley Meyer Explained

[h20power]

Hi Cherryman,
You are right about one thing, the injectors are simple.

For what you are seeing is a typical bosh CIS injection system, but this injector has three separate injectors in one housing. The voltage zone is 7a/b and 8. Water goes in port 1 and comes out atomized at 1a where the pressure difference will turn it into vapor being that it is hot/high pressure being injected into a hot/low pressure zone. Then is passes through the pulsating high voltage zone and undergoes this process:

Once the droplets reaches the critical volume the next step is conversion to hydrogen and oxygen through magnetic induction and voltage imposed on it by the image charge. This is a static voltage so not enough amperage to cause it to blow up just split into it's component elements. 3 is the supply line for ionized air gases exiting at 3a, and 2 (not shown) is for recirculated exhaust gases exiting at 2a. As you can see a wall of air surrounds the atomized water droplets and push the water through the voltage zone. He also states the water will not form into larger water droplets, this is due to it being charged with the same polarity, and we all know opposites attract and likes repels, and every water droplet has the same polarity. So water adhesion characteristics are overcome this way and well as it's cohesion properties.

In the injector, water mist (forming droplets in the range, for example, of from 10 to 250 microns and above, with size being related to voltage intensity) is injected into fuel-mixing and polarizing zone by way of water spray nozzles 1A1. The tendency of water to form a bead or droplet is a parameter related to droplet mist size and voltage intensity. Ionized air gases and non-combustible gases, introduced through nozzles 2A1 and 3A1, are intermixed with the expelling water mist to form a fuel-mixture which enters into voltage zone 6 where the mixture is exposed to a pulsating, unipolar high intensity voltage field (typically 20,000 volts at 50 KHz or above at the resonant condition in which current flow in the circuit [amps] is reduced to a minimum), created between electrodes 7 and 8.

Furthermore Meyer says this:

Laser energy prevents discharge of the ionized gases and provides additional energy input into the molecular destabilization process that occurs at resonance. It is preferable that the ionized gases be subjected to laser (photonic energy) activation in advance of the introduction of the gases into the zone(s); although, for example, a fiber optic conduit may be useful to direct photonic energy directly into the zone. Heat generated in the zone, however, may affect the operability of such an alternative configuration. The electrical polarization of the water molecule and a resonant condition occurs to destabilize the molecular bonding of the hydrogen and oxygen atoms. By spark ignition, combustion energy is released.

To ensure proper flame projection and subsequent flame stability, pumps for the ambient air, non-combustible gas and water introduce these components to the injector under static pressure up to and beyond 126 psi.

This is saying that the spark plugs ignition system still functions as it normally did prior to the conversion. Static pressure is how a CIS fuel system works and Meyer shows a fuel distributer here:
The fuel distributer works exactly the same as found in a CIS fuel system: Bosch Fuel Injection Systems - Bosch K-Jetronic and here: Auto-Solve Diagnostic Assistance. Take the time to familiarize yourself with this fuel system as it is the same as the one Meyer employed.

Now can you see what I meant when I said to move your voltage zone, for Meyer's voltage zone is just after the atomization disk in the injection system. It is this small voltage zone that splits the water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen on demand. More energy is added in with the ionized air gases, and the reaction rate of combustion is control by the recirculated exhaust gases. This is far more simple than the WFC's mode of operation.

Which is why I made this thread in the first place to talk about the WFI's working systems, popular demand made me talk about the WFC.

Now this part is very interesting for it says that the injectors also work as the gas processor in ejecting atoms prior to combustion from the resulting mixture:

In the voltage zone several functions occur simultaneously to initiate and trigger thermal energy yield. Water mist droplets are exposed to high intensity pulsating voltage fields in accordance with an electrical polarization process that separates the atoms of the water molecule and causes the atoms to experience electron ejection. The polar nature of the water molecule which facilitates the formation of minute droplets in the mist appears to cause a relationship between the droplet size and the voltage required to effect the process, i.e., the greater the droplet size, the higher the voltage required. The liberated atoms of the water molecule interact with laser primed ionized ambient air gases to cause a highly energized and destabilized mass of combustible gas atoms to thermally ignite. Incoming ambient air gases are laser primed and ionized when passing through a gas processor; and an electron extraction circuit (Figure 5) captures and consumes in sink 55 ejected electrons and prevents electron flow into the resonant circuit.

In terms of performance, reliability and safety, ionized air gases and water fuel liquid do not become volatile until the fuel mixture reaches the voltage and combustion zones. Injected non-combustible gases retard and control the combustion rate of hydrogen during gas ignition.

In alternate applications, laser primed ionized liquid oxygen and laser primed liquid hydrogen stored in separate fuel tanks can be used in place of the fuel mixture, or liquefied ambient air gases alone with water can be substituted as a fuel source.

The injector assembly is design variable and is retrofitable to fossil fuel injector ports conventionally used in jet/rocket engines, grain dryers, blast furnaces, heating systems, internal combustion engines and the like.

All patent information taken from here: Stanley Meyer: Water Electrolysis -- Canadian Patent # 2067735 -- Water Fule Injection System

Hope this helps in your understanding of the water fuel injectors(WFI's)


h2opower.

[sebosfato]

Its very nice to hear you yet talking about image charges and is so clear and funny for me that all the others understood what is it ... i really hope you can show what you claim

[Cherryman]

Tnx H20 for explaining it more. I understand only half of it, but i will study it a bit harder.

I think the system basics should not be very complicated giving the time of the invention and the beackground of Meyer. I'm not saying the system can'tbe improved or designed an other way. But the basic working system showing the (working) princeple i think is not very high tech.

As for injectors, as i live in the Netherlands, we have a lot of cars around here driving on natural gas. (Including modern injection engines) I wonder if anyone ever tried hooking up an H system to there natural gas sytem, as the "infrastructure" and some hardware is already in place.

Cherryman

[h20power]

Your welcome Cherryman,

As far as I know only the timing has to be changed a bit and add in Stanley Meyer's Gas Processor. Those systems would need Meyer water fuel capacitor system. And this is a site that sells controllers & more for such a transformation: Alternative Fuel CNG Engine Conversion LPG Hydrogen Erdgas. You would have to adapt Meyer's technology to match the needs of their systems, would take some thought but it shouldn't be too hard. You would definitely need to make the quenching tubes and have the WFC take set up to maintain a working pressure above the needs of their system. Everything is there just need to plan it out correctly.

The circuit we are currently working on should adapt very well for that with just a pressure switch in the right place to turn on an off the WFC set to a pressure greater than the needs of their system. One thing that is found in both of Stanley Meyer water fueled cars was the Gas Processor, that is why it is imperative that everyone make such a device for as Meyer went from gaseous to water injection the gas processor remained a vital part of the system.

Like I always say energy independence is now ours for the taking, and like milk does the body good, pass it on


h2opower.

Tnx H20 for explaining it more. I understand only half of it, but i will study it a bit harder.

I think the system basics should not be very complicated giving the time of the invention and the beackground of Meyer. I'm not saying the system can'tbe improved or designed an other way. But the basic working system showing the (working) princeple i think is not very high tech.

As for injectors, as i live in the Netherlands, we have a lot of cars around here driving on natural gas. (Including modern injection engines) I wonder if anyone ever tried hooking up an H system to there natural gas sytem, as the "infrastructure" and some hardware is already in place.

Cherryman

[bussi04]

first feedback and bug fixes for pcb

"Hello world!" (tribute to good old unix-times),

first experimental KiCad circuit layout of Stan Meyer´s main circuit for your exploration. Not tested yet but hopefully good base for tests and experiments.
...

I have assembled my published pcb from http://www.energeticforum.com/72886-post1267.html and can give you first feedback now:

Instead of +5V with 7805 8V with 7808 linear regulator can be used.

Oscillator U3 running and producing a triangle signal for VCO of the CD 4046 PLL. Analog Switch CD 4066 working fine for this purpose. Oscillator U5 running and producing a gate signal for the VIC pulsing frequence. CD 4046 PLL producing the pulsing frequency varied in small scale by the triangle signal from U3/U2B. Those NOR-gates CD 4001 doing some work in the circuit

I have not finished my VIC up yet so that I can´t test the resonant part of the circuit at the moment. Same for the needed power driver for the VIC. yesterday I have started to make the delrin bobbins and now I know they must be made using slow RPM. otherwise they are getting hot, crumbling and some of the thin plates get destroyed. I had to learn a lot about mechanics

In the gerber files I generated are some errors! That means that they can´t be used without manual change. better use a corrected version.
those errors are:

1. all trim potentiometers have wrong pin enumeration. pin 1 and 2 MUST be changed (worst case shortcut and burn out of the potentiometer)
2. pin connection for the 7808 is totally wrong. MUST be changed, otherwise failure
3. the layout uses 16 pins for U2 (LM 324). but it´s 14 pins.

for those who have already made the pcb there is a workaround:
for the potentiometers you can connect each pot with wires and turn pins 1 and 2. the 7808 you can connect with wires to the pcb and make the pin changes. U2 can be put into the 16 pin footprint so that pin1 of U2 is pin1 of the footprint, but you must bend up pin9 of the circuit U2 to avoid shortcut of an output to VCC.

But it´s better to make (or wait for) a corrected layout. I´ll do it soon for those who are waiting.

It was difficult to get all needed parts:
capacitors - some parts are bigger than the allocated space on the pcb, special values i.e. 1.58 nF I had to realise by parallel values 1 nF, 0.47 nF, 0.1 nF.
digital circuits DIP - many digital circuits are available as SMD (surface mounted device) versions. it´s hard to get them as DIP at the first place.
potentiometer - some are bigger than allocated space on the pcb, some are smaller.

If you make the pcb by yourself using KiCad it makes sence to buy the parts before making the gerber files so that you can choose the right footprints for the bought parts.
If you use my gerber files print the layout for visual check first, then buy the parts.

greetings,
bussi04

[h20power]

Thanks Bussi04,

As for the sizes of the parts I always look at the pdf of the parts for the exact sizes they will be, that way I don't get any surprizes. Thanks for all your help and I too will be waiting for the circuit.

I had the same problem with the VIC bobbins and used water to keep them cool, someone gave me that advice and I listened
Once we have a circuit to work from that contols the GP, WFI's, and WFC, we will have something to work together with.

I can help with anyone wanting to convert a carberated internal combustion engine for engine trails. The risk of damage increases but I think it can still be controled for prophane and natrual gas burning cars mix it also in the carberator or somewhere close by and that is an explosive mixture too.

We can work together for a brighter future all to have and share, for that is just the right thing to do, look out for your fellow man. For like it or not if you don't make $500k per year or more you are apart of the don't haves.


h2opower.

[bussi04]

pcb beta rev. 0.2 subject for discussion

Hello Stan Meyer tech experimentators ,

I have updated, expanded and corrected my recently published circuit in the appended layout.
before my routing takes place you should have a close look to the application contents and give feedback/corrections if necessary.
I have put most of SM functionality onto this board, also those parts we hadn´t discussed before. What I left out is accelerator pedal electronics and WFC pressure control electronics.

To give you a better overview I have made annotations for the original SM figures in the scheme.

Because of High Voltage I am concerned that the galvanic barrier between controller and driver circuit has to be obeyed. That means that no HV component can reside on the main pcb. So it gets a separate one.
Before routing I must take care for the fact that those paths dealing with high currents must be thicker than those for normal signal propagation.

Some resistor values I haven´t calculated up to now. If anyone has a good idea or backup information according to figure 5 values R19,20,21,22,23,25,26,32 this would be the right time to give me a hint .
The same for the voltage VEE at R23 in fig. 5. Any idea? I guess it´s identical with the driver/batt/supply voltage 12-24V, but I´m not sure.

Some resistors get the value 0, that means that they are no real resistors but bridges for several purposes. circuit parts can be separated easily if a bridge is not installed. That may be necessary if later redesign should become necessary or new driver segments shall be integrated (i.e. R33).
Another case for bridge R2: as soon as we know the exact frequency produced from U3 then it may be necessary to change the value of RV1 and add a Resistor R2.

I don´t know if those fig. 12 parts (U9,U11,SW2,SW3,SW5,SW6) and fig. 7 parts (U12,U13,U14,SW7) are needed so you can implement them or leave them out.
IMPORTANT:
1. If you implement fig. 12 functionality bridge R11 MUST be left open.
2. U9 and U11 are SN74HCTxx circuits, that can only be supplied by +5V though they are CMOS . So if you add fig. 12 functionality you MAY NOT USE a 7808 but only 7805 as U1. I didn´t find a substitute in CD40xx. But that´s no problem because the whole circuit will work with +5V. The only things that change are frequencies that can be adjusted with pots.

If one of you uses 8V and another one uses 5V and all other circuit values are the same those voltage dividers and RC-circuits will differ in behaviour and comparing results and support gets more difficult. So for practical reasons I would suggest to use 5V.

That´s for the moment, I´ll add the KiCad files as sm1.pdf (real sm1.zip) and 2 low res pictures of the schemes for those who have not yet installed KiCad . And ... clean up your glasses .
Be aware that zooming in with KiCad and implementing individual adds is a great benefit for learning KiCad.

The whole circuit remains beta until some experimentors have got first practical results and given feeback. I can´t do that alone!
capacitors and resistors may have to be changed so that timing gets optimized or as needed. so please don´t wait too long to take up your experiments otherwise the circuit can´t be finalized.

The next days I´ll upload the layout files. There is some work for me to do towards routing and footprints,

please give analytical feedback and
stay tuned,

greetings,
bussi04

[bussi04]

complete SM original circuit

... think that helps for general overview

greetings,
bussi04

[handyandy]

that helps?

Buzzi04,

That's the schematic from the Stan's patent (without component values) which is different from the schematic earlier in this thread. I don't know where that other schematic came from other than it being posted at waterfuelcell.org. Doesn't matter to me just need a pll circuit that works.

Andy

[h20power]

Thanks Bussi04,

It looks great to me, can't find anything wrong with them. On one of those circuit it shows a 20 ohm high watt resistor in-line with the primary coil. Question, "Do you think that is needed or not?"

The thing I like about it is at first we can start off at a very low voltage to set everything up so it doesn't burn the Darlington, primary coil, or some FET in the coil driver circuit while the circuit is being fine tuned and/or searching for resonance. Without circuit 4 it would be at full power, and that could blow, and burn things up if it is not in a resonance condition. Or like in one of my circuits when resonance is found the primary is only getting 1.3v and your stuck with that, though it was producing 320v from that. Nope this time we will get it right


h2opower.

[bussi04]

Buzzi04,

That's the schematic from the Stan's patent (without component values) which is different from the schematic earlier in this thread. I don't know where that other schematic came from other than it being posted at waterfuelcell.org. Doesn't matter to me just need a pll circuit that works.

Andy

Hi handyandy,

I hope it helps to compare the functional sections in my published scheme to the original SM functional sections (figures). The whole SM circuit on a single page . And now quite the same functionality on a single pcb.

greetings,
bussi04

[bussi04]

...
On one of those circuit it shows a 20 ohm high watt resistor in-line with the primary coil. Question, "Do you think that is needed or not?"
...


h2opower.

When finally all is working fine I think that there is no need for the resistor. Then the amp flux will be influenced by analog voltage regulation.

But until we have experience how the VIC behaves in normal operating conditions the resistor can be added for safety issues direct in line to the primary coil. In normal operation it only consumes watts and eats energy.
so there is no need to add that resistor to the pcb.

greetings,
bussi04

[Radiant_Science]

Most important part...

I agree with almost everything u put out H2O...but, I feel you did not stress something enough.

You state that the Water Fuel Injector works in the same manner...which is true...but, I feel the need to explain why it does, w/o an Electron Extraction CIRCUIT.

See, the reason most people see nothing when they attempt to use high volts/low amps, is because the voltage only temporarily separates the water (into aqueous H3O+ and OH- )...as soon as the pulse hits ground state the water just reaches back to equilibrium.

In the Water Fuel CELL...the way to destabilize is by re-routing the negative charge (electrons) to a separate circuit/load immediately as the input charge is shutting off (waters relaxation time holds charge).

In the Water Fuel INJECTOR, the destabilization comes from the pre-made Positive ion known as Ozone that is supplied with the water. As the voltage is applied the water separates and the +ozone interacts with OH- ions stripping their negative charge and releasing gaseous O and H

The key here is the O3 is made in the "Gas Processor" then injected in with water vapor. The high voltage field separates the neutral water molecule, then the +O3 turns the otherwise "temporary phase change" into a permanent separation by neutralizing one side of the equal and opposite polarization.

"Exact Chemical Structures are UNKNOWN"...only theoretical chemical behaviors can be pondered at this time. But, the physics is there...we need to put it together

Furthermore...
Certain frequencies of light push the atom to higher energy levels...also, there's a neat phenomena called stimulated emission only explained with quantum mechanics. Where if a photon (incident beam) hits an electron, the electron jumps up in energy level, only to fall back down...when the electron falls back down, it releases an identical photon traveling in the same direction. These now 2 photons, (if reaction chamber is built right..."resonant cavity" hehe) will bounce back and do it again...over and over.

The higher energy levels mean that the molecules will interact with the voltage zone in a stronger fashion.

Look up MASER
Maser - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hydrogen maser - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[h20power]

If you would, please show your energy content calculations of the resulting reaction in kJ/mol. O3 + H2O => ?? This is the reaction you are talking about, correct? Please show the energy content one would get from such a reaction.

And why in the world would you not want to use the EEC? For all this time since the death of Stanley Meyer no one has used the EEC and no one has duplicated his work. You can look over You Tube at thousands of videos where people show what happens if you don't use the EEC and also what happens if you don't make the Water Fuel Capacitor(WFC) an isolated circuit(A water fuel cell was created by Sir William Robert Grove Grove, please do not confuse these very different technologies).

The way the injectors work I have shown already and Meyer talks about it here:

The basic electrical system utilized in the invention is depicted in Figure 5 showing the electrical polarization zone 6 which receives and processes the water and gas mixture as a capacitive circuit element in a resonant charging circuit formed by inductors 51 and 52 connected in series with diode 53, pulsed voltage source 54, electron sink 55 and the zone/locus 6 formed from conductive elements 7 and 8. In this manner, electrodes 7 and 8 in the injector form a capacitor which has electrical characteristics dependent on the dielectric media (e.g., the water mist, ionized gases, and non-combustible gases) introduced between the conductive elements. Within the macro-dielectric media, however, the water molecules themselves, because of their polar nature, can be considered micro-capacitors.

That last part is very important for free water droplets in air is a form of a capacitor. Meyer goes on to say this:

In the voltage zone several functions occur simultaneously to initiate and trigger thermal energy yield. Water mist droplets are exposed to high intensity pulsating voltage fields in accordance with an electrical polarization process that separates the atoms of the water molecule and causes the atoms to experience electron ejection. The polar nature of the water molecule which facilitates the formation of minute droplets in the mist appears to cause a relationship between the droplet size and the voltage required to effect the process, i.e., the greater the droplet size, the higher the voltage required. The liberated atoms of the water molecule interact with laser primed ionized ambient air gases to cause a highly energized and destabilized mass of combustible gas atoms to thermally ignite. Incoming ambient air gases are laser primed and ionized when passing through a gas processor; and an electron extraction circuit (Figure 5) captures and consumes in sink 55 ejected electrons and prevents electron flow into the resonant circuit.

This part tells of the droplet size relationship between the voltage required to break it down. Now here I give an illistration of that process: It works by over charging the little capacitor by way of induction that the water droplets pick up as an image charge from the voltage zone. A critical volume is reached and the water molecule breaks down into hydrogen and oxygen. The larger the droplet size the higher the voltage must be to break down the water molecule in the same given time and space. Higher voltages mean faster times to reach the spliting of the water molecules into smaller ones. All I did was translate what Meyer said into terms of science we all could understand.

Now for these two reactions, upsetting of water's equilibrium(WFC) and the charge divid split method(WFI's) both are mixed with the ionized air gases coming from the Gas Processor(GP). And I have already given the energy content calculations for the two said reaction.

I don't mind different theories, but those theories should always include energy content calculations in trying to explain how Stanley Meyer ran his dune buggy using only an hho production rate of 7 L/min show in this video: YouTube - Stanley Meyer's water car's first run.

I am not being mean or disrespectful in anyway, only trying to get you to ask the same questions I ask with concern to Meyer's work. It all comes down to energy content and if you don't get the energy content needed to surpass that of gasoline you will need more of the substance to achieve the same amount of work. In Meyer's case he surpassed the energy content of gasoline thus required much less amounts of substance(water) to achieve the same amount of work that gasoline could do. 87 gallons of gasoline for a trip from LA to NY and only 22 gallons of water for the same distance. When you make your theories make sure they match up to what Stanley Meyer says he was able to do. As for the way I describe his work I made sure to add in the much needed energy content calculations for only then could I self correct myself if things didn't add up to what Meyer claimed he was able to do.


h2opower.

I agree with almost everything u put out H2O...but, I feel you did not stress something enough.

You state that the Water Fuel Injector works in the same manner...which is true...but, I feel the need to explain why it does, w/o an Electron Extraction CIRCUIT.

See, the reason most people see nothing when they attempt to use high volts/low amps, is because the voltage only temporarily separates the water (into aqueous H3O+ and OH- )...as soon as the pulse hits ground state the water just reaches back to equilibrium.

In the Water Fuel CELL...the way to destabilize is by re-routing the negative charge (electrons) to a separate circuit/load immediately as the input charge is shutting off (waters relaxation time holds charge).

In the Water Fuel INJECTOR, the destabilization comes from the pre-made Positive ion known as Ozone that is supplied with the water. As the voltage is applied the water separates and the +ozone interacts with OH- ions stripping their negative charge and releasing gaseous O and H

The key here is the O3 is made in the "Gas Processor" then injected in with water vapor. The high voltage field separates the neutral water molecule, then the +O3 turns the otherwise "temporary phase change" into a permanent separation by neutralizing one side of the equal and opposite polarization.

"Exact Chemical Structures are UNKNOWN"...only theoretical chemical behaviors can be pondered at this time. But, the physics is there...we need to put it together

Furthermore...
Certain frequencies of light push the atom to higher energy levels...also, there's a neat phenomena called stimulated emission only explained with quantum mechanics. Where if a photon (incident beam) hits an electron, the electron jumps up in energy level, only to fall back down...when the electron falls back down, it releases an identical photon traveling in the same direction. These now 2 photons, (if reaction chamber is built right..."resonant cavity" hehe) will bounce back and do it again...over and over.

The higher energy levels mean that the molecules will interact with the voltage zone in a stronger fashion.

Look up MASER
Maser - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hydrogen maser - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Radiant_Science]

Missing my point!

@H2O....I think u missed what I ACTUALLY said...so, I'm gonna underline the key points...please try to focus on what I am saying, and not on what u "know"


I am NOT saying "Don't use an EEC"....I AM saying "There is no EEC in the WFI"

Only the WFC has an Electron Extraction CIRCUIT...There is no isolated EEC in the WFI...

This is a quote you posted from Meyer...I thought u knew what it meant, obviously not!...

The liberated atoms of the water molecule interact with laser primed ionized ambient air gases to cause a highly energized and destabilized mass of combustible gas atoms to thermally ignite.

There is NO chemical reaction between O3 & H2O....Water is neutral, O3 (ozone) is a positive ion. It's not until the two enter the voltage zone that the O3 does anything. The "static" voltage you speak of, cannot separate water alone...at least not permanently. The O3 works on the temporarily polarized water (still liquid (aqueous) H3O+ and OH-) to cancel out the negative ionic charge (OH- -> O and H)....this leaves "destabilized mass of combustible gas atoms" (aqueous H3O+ and gaseous O and H )...**actual phase state (ie, solid, liquid, gas, plasma) may be altered due to atomization/laser bombardment**


You understand what I am trying to tell you now?

O3 IS the EEC in the WFI....