Atomic Physics and Stan Meyers Gas Processor

[HMS-776]

This discussion is meant to understand the Gas Processor by studying physics and engineering principles. The intention is to understand what happens inside the gas processor and how the multiply ionized, excited oxygen is created in an economical and simple way.

The first thing I would like to talk about, is the mention of "Particle Impact" in Meyers Tech Brief as well his hydrogen gas gun patent 4,826,581.

The released atomic gasses are next ionized and electrically charged in a vessel while being subjected to a further energy soruce that promotes Inter-particle impact in the gas at an increased energy level.
-Patent 4,826,581

Now if you all research Electron Impact excitation/ionization you'll find that a free electron can be put into motion by a positive charge, hitting other atoms on it's way to the positive charge, and causing those atoms to be excited and even ionized.

Overview

Electron avalanche - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Also, the other thing I would like to mention is the Splitting of atomic spectral lines by the use of electric fields, known as the Stark Effect. In plain english it means, When you put an atom in a electrical field the atom has a higher number of photon wavelengths it can absorb (or emit) to be excited (or return to it's ground state).

Stark effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It seems the Gas Processor's purpose is to create what is known as Rydberg Oxygen.

Rydberg atom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Rydberg atoms form commonly in plasmas)


So we have a few things to look into here. To me it seems that if you study the Stark Effect you'll notice that as the electric field increases so does the spectral line splitting. The stronger the electric field, the more spectral lines there will be, and the more possible wavelengths could be used to excite the atoms.

[h20power]

Hi HMS-776,

My PC is down right now and I would like to ask you to look up any works on the Oxygen atom being that it is far more complex than Hydrogen, just to see if anyone has ever taken a stab at it in this realm.

In some the reading you provided it is clear that the absorbtion wavelengths have to be hit just right for the atoms undergoing this process. The Oxygen atom with more than 73 wavelengths to choose from. I hope you now understand my choice in LEDs now as I looked to what mother nature was doing. One area that needs improvement is all mathmatical model they have reason being is the orbital path is in an egg shape and not as they have assumed. I will be following your work on this to also gain more understanding on this.


h2opower.

[David Barclay]

One thing that is overlooked is the energy relationship between pure hydrogen and oxygen.

In terms of energy ratios, hydrogen has the highest energy ratio per unit of mass of any known material, so it is not too surprising that oxygen also carries a very high ratio of energy to mass.

Also any free electron carries an extremely high ratio of energy.

Gas burning engines function on the principle of resistance, so by introducing high energy materials into the mix you actually increase the resistance level of the gas whereby you get more mileage.

Not something I think the auto industry knows about.

[NewGuy]

I'd like to gain as much knowledge about the device my self.....I understand we want the most simple explanation and I hope we find it
This link might be interesting... maybe not much help but interesting
.:: Controlled Light Waves ::.
In his list of events slide it shows particle impact just before laser or photon injection,Ive gotta read more .

[HMS-776]

In all of this I have searched and searched for works done on Oxygen. I just purchased a paper which hopefully I'll recieve next week from NASA about ionizing and exciting Oxygen. Maybe it will give us some clues.

From all the research I've done though I believe the Stark effect is what we need to look into the most. My goal here is to get the modeling and math worked out so we can know for sure what wavelengths we need and how to easily calculate them.

File:Stark splitting.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you go to the above link and look at the diagram you'll clearly see the Stark Effect. As the electric field increases the amount of possible energy levels also increase.

We just need to find out how to calculate the Stark Effect to determine the necessary energy levels needed (in eV) which can be converted to nm. It seems to me if we have a high enough voltage field to create enough line splitting we might be able to do all the work with only 1 wavelength. As you can see the higher energy levels of the hydrogen atom (in the diagram) have more line splitting than the lower levels.


Now in my first post 2 ways of performing this have been explained. The first using the Stark effect to create spectral line splitting.

The second is to create an electron avalanche to cause impact ionization and excitation. The question here is, what would the LED's be used for if this was how the GP worked, is it the photoelectric effect. If so the electrodes must clearly be aluminum has a wavelength (303nm/4.08eV) to cause the effect. But I don't believe Stan used a wavelength that short. Perhaps the photoelectric effect wavelengths can also be changed with the application of an electric field???

Another thing I would like to mention. Looking at patent 4,826,581 figure 5 shows the applied voltage pulse train as well as the applied photon pulse train having their on time during the same time.

[HMS-776]

Engineering design parameters based on known theoretical principles of atomic physics determine the incremental levels of electrical and wave energy input required to produce resonance in each stage of the system.

Stan Meyer Patent# 4,826,581 Paragraph 2

Resonance is the wavelength of the electromagnetic radiation that exactly matches the difference of a pair of discrete energy levels of an atom..."

Basically stated, resonance is the energy required to excite the atom one level. We know because of the patent that the Photon energy and E field have the same ON time, so were definately looking at spectral line splitting because of the E field (stark effect).

The problem is calculating it. With each ionization the required energy changes, as the E field increases the spectral line splitting also increases. There's got to be a point where the E field creates enough spectral line splitting so only 1 or two wavelengths are needed.

__________________________________________________ ______________

For now we'll forget the Photon wavelengths and try to figure out the easier part: The Ionization energy.

We first ionize the atom using High Voltage Fields.

If we look at the Ionization energies of Oxygen we find (in eV):
1=13.61
2=35.11
3=54.93
4=77.41
5=113.89

The first thing we need to do is determine how to calculate V/cm which will give us at least 80eV (if that can be calculated).


This is how the GP will be modeled here:

-Determine size and voltage required to get 80eV applied to atoms.
-Determine wavelength changes due to the E field

Seems simple, but when you don't have any physics background like me it makes things extremly complicated. I happen to believe that we need the math here, without it we might never get the wavelengths right.

ALSO, I FOUND A GOOD PAPER EXPLAINING WHAT MEYERS SEEMS TO BE TALKING ABOUT:
http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Articles/6-1/K.pdf
Energy Balance of Fusion Processes of Molecules of Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Water-Ph.M. Kanarev

[HMS-776]

This is probably the most important post I will post here:

If you look at the Spectra (NIST.gov) of molecular Oxygen and Singly ionized Oxygen you'll find they are vastly different. In fact with each successive ionization the energy required becomes larger. So you would need multiple wavelengths and most likely X-Ray to ionize 4 atoms from Oxygen. Then we add an electric field and complicate things even further because of stark splitting.

Stan mentions in his patent (4,826,581) that atomic physics can show the wavelengths needed to induce resonance to excite the atoms. Well, has anyone here ever found Spectra for multiply ionized oxygen?

I'm still looking

I think this is part of the Stan's complexity game (make it harder and more complicated than it is to protect the technology).

I recently found a great clue in Stan Meyers Switzerland video.
So if you're reading this, open your Meyer video collection (if you as nerdy as I) and open Stan Meyers Switzerland video # 4, start it at 6:15 and you'll hear the following statement:

"We are now injecting laser energy in the process to aid the ejection of the electron"

Now you may not realize this at first, but this is a statement which allows us to draw a few conclusions!

-Resonant photon excitation is most likely not used but merely a means of Stan's complexity game
-The High voltage fields do the majority of the work for the ionization
-It is possible that only 1 wavelength of LED is needed

Now, I believe I allready know the conclusion here as to what wavelength(s) were used in the Gas Processor, something I have thought for a long time but never could fully prove it. And I probably won't be able to until I actutally build it. Since I'm the only one posting here, I'll let someone else try to figure it out.

Also see Stan Meyers T.B. page 1-19, Fig 1-15 which clearly shows 4 electrons removed, which we allready knew was necessary thanks to
H2OPOWER.

Just remember, as Stan said, the photon injection AIDES the process of ionization. The electric field does most of the work.

The more I research this the more I realize that an actual mathematical model seems nearly impossible. One has to account for:

-Spectral Line Splitting (Stark Effect)
-Various excitation resonant energy levels which change with each ionization
-Temperature changes
-Velocity changes which will effect plasma
-V/cm to get the right ionization potential

[sebosfato]

Hi HMS

Do you remember when i talked about the photoelectric effect?
When you knock an electron from the surface of a material witch have 2ev work function with a laser that have 3.1ev or 400nm laser you have an electron knocked at a speed of 6.22*10^5m/s witch totalize 1.1 electron volts right? You asked your self what happens when you put a voltage on that?
I have the answer:
Meyer showed the force=to mass * acceleration
If you think about you can compare easily with gravity force. If you drop an object from 1 meter it will have x speed if you drop it from 10 meters it will have 10^2 more speed if i'm not wrong.

So voltage field is a force like gravity and has the capability of accelerate even further that free electrons. I read in a paper that this acceleration depends on the distance between the plates and that this distance is also related to the % of probability of collision of that electrons with covalent bound electrons. I found that if you are releasing 1 electron volt electrons and apply 14 volts potential it will give you at the end 14 electron volts of energy gain. Thats why stanley saying that voltage can not be consumed in an electronic circuit.

I'm studying the all calculation to do this but i'm not yet able to calculate other than this.

On my thread i posted a calculation sheet check it.

[HMS-776]

Yes, Thanks.

The photoelectric effect and the electron avalanche is definately something I am strongly considering. The only issue I see at the moment is the metal used. Aluminum seems to have the lowest work function (4.08eV) for such a widely available metal. But even then you need 303nm or lower to achieve the photoelectric effect.

Trying to find LED's or laser diodes with 303nm or lower at a good price. not much luck so far.

[HMS-776]

Thanks for than info.

I also tend to wonder, for if there were any ozone formation it would cause probs with the aluminum (if we didn't consume all the electrons) as we wont be doing so all the time. I think Aluminum and SS are the best ways to go.


As far as figuring out the wavelengths, I must admit, it's a journey in itself with a lot of factors to take into account! From all the work I've done I believe you are closer than anyone on the wavelengths you choose.

[NewGuy]

Its been a long time since I looked into this stuff but I had saved this link....I was looking for 95nm LED at the time but somewhere in here is 12v 185nm if that helps or not.Does the polarity of the molecules/atoms/ions matter to thier effect on the metal used?

TOC Reduction

[HMS-776]

That's interesting reading. I've found a lot of stuff like that but never seem to find any definite answers. I don't think the polarity matters as once the electric field is on the atom's will polarize anyways.

I just got a report from NASA which didn't help as much as I hoped.

I did however find the singlet oxygen emission spectrum which may be what we need (or close to it):

1265nm (.98eV-first level),760nm (1.63eV-second level),703nm (1.73eV???) ,634nm (1.95eV???), and 478nm (2.59???)

Perhaps these are the resonant wavelengths we've been looking for?

I know the ionization energies change quite a bit with each ionization, but I'm not sure about the excitation energies??? That's the big question here, that and confirming these wavelengths!

I'll have to do more research to know for sure...

[HMS-776]

From wikipedia Singlet oxygen:

In the isolated molecule, the transition is strictly forbidden by spin, symmetry and parity selection rules, making it one of nature's most forbidden transitions. In other words, direct excitation of ground state oxygen by light to form singlet oxygen is very improbable.

Now the paper i got from NASA also confirms this:

Because the optical excitation of this state involves a doubly forbidden transition, a two step process is required. First the molecule is optically excited to the second energy state, which is 1.63eV above the ground state. It then undergoes collisional relaxation to the first excited state.

The above basically rules out the use of the 1265nm wavelength for the first excitation. It seems we need to go directly to the second, which is 760nm
(1.63eV). From there we need to find out the rest......

Also, looking at this and the Gas processor (which has only 21 LED's) I tend to wonder if Stan's goal was to just use the resoannt photon energy to help get the atom's first ionization, and from there collisional excitation and ionization does the rest of the job. This would simplify thigs greatly!

More work to be done!

[rdmwc]

im just going to think out loud for a minute. now would the specific wavelenghts really matter considering the amount of stress the atom is going through in the high voltage field?? i'm wondering if the reason the leds are pulsed with the eec and not the high voltage field is the high voltage field severely stresses the atoms and then the photons "push" the electrons out of orbit and are then attracted to the eec as they pass the eec. just a thought.

[HMS-776]

Engineering design parameters based on known theoretical principles of atomic physics determine the incremental levels of electrical and wave energy input required to produce resonance in each stage of the system.

Stan Meyer Patent# 4,826,581 Paragraph 2

This should tell us that resonant wavelengths are used, the problem here is we need someone who knows this stuff, for there are so many variables and different things to look into. I think H2OPOWER has a good shot at the wavelengths he chose though. I started this post because I wanted to understand what the wavelengths are, and if my research came up with the same conclusion. It's very diffecult for someone who never tooka chem class though to understand all the levels of oxygen.

[QUOTE]"We are now injecting laser energy in the process to aid the ejection of the electron" -Stan Meyers Switzerland vid # 4 (6:15-6:30)[/QUOTE]

The photon energy is to aid the ionization, perhaps only the first ionization, and with that we have free electrons which gain energy because of their velocity (attraction toward positive charge) which cause impact ionization and perform the rest of the work. Seems like the LED's are only there to increase efficiency.

Our only job is to ionize the atom of 4 electrons. At first I got confused and thought we were ionizing the atom of 4 electrons, and bringing the remaining 2 valence electrons to their 4th energy level (N Orbit). But i was wrong, I confused the facts that the electrons are pushed up (excited) level by level until they are ionized.

There's just a lot to look into when you have no background into chem and physics....Really alot! That's why this post was started!

Can someone tell me how many excited states Oxygen has before it is ionized? And what the energy levels are in electronVolts?