Stanley Meyer technology entering the age of the computer

[HMS-776]

Bussi04

Thanks for that info. I can tell by your writing and others here that there's a few people here who know this stuff much better than I do, and I thank you guys for that, and for sharing what you do know.

Electronics for me is something I know I still have a lot to learn, I'm currently attending school so hopefully one day I can put the needed circuits together and contribute in some way. I know basics, microcomputers I have not even started studying yet. I will look forward to seeing what the people in this thread can produce together!!!

[gpssonar]

I could not get ubuntu to load on my dell d600, I tried everything that was on the forum nothing seem to work so i installed windows xp back on it...I did get my avr can today in the mail...maybe ill try ubuntu again when i have more time ..

[bussi04]

.
...
1. Make a list of all physical devices needed
2. Use Kicad to draw a system overview hierarchical diagram, the "skeleton" to fill in the meat.
3. Make a requirement description for each functional block in the system diagram.
...
Eric

This is my first shoot for a device list in a KiCad diagram. listed are devices necessary for ICE usage and control. questions.txt contains questions that have to be evaluated.
devices are drawn with schematic pin connectors that get connected to a uC unit.
some of the drawn devices have a device description *.txt that can be displayed.

for KiCad usage please download vic.pdf (really vic.zip), change extension to zip, extract vic.zip, read versioninfo.txt.

annotations?

greeting,
bussi04

[Tecstatic]

I could not get ubuntu to load on my dell d600, I tried everything that was on the forum nothing seem to work so i installed windows xp back on it...I did get my avr can today in the mail...maybe ill try ubuntu again when i have more time ..

I'm sorry to hear that.

I did a check of the D600 data sheet. This is probably so old you may very well face both the ACPI tweeking, and the limited BIOS addressing.

Be sure to have 512 MByte memory, else that can be a problem too, not so much for installing, but for the development work.

I know my first Ubuntu install on a Medion some years ago was a bit tough because of the ACPI and one other thing in Ubuntu, also the BIOS setup was changed..but I got it to work.

As mentioned it can be one more ting, on some older BIOS, a special boot partition of 125MByte must be made, because the BIOS can not access addresses above 128MByte. That results in a grub load error.

The remedy is to watch the guided partition layout, and then make a manual layout with a separated 125MByte partition specified for boot, and the rest is business as usual.

I have installed Ubuntu on an IBM T23, that required a BIOS update and some drivers update. But then it was OK.

Install without a pain on Lenovo ThinkPad T30, T41, T61.

I have also installed on several so-called "bamboo-PCs", no name Taiwan PCs. These are often working flawlessly, actually these is what I prefer for a stationary.

On stationary PC's I have only had the problem of buying a high performance graphic card before the Linux driver was available.

I have made Ubuntu installs on 11 different types of PCs, and got all running. 7 was with no extra measures at all. Extra work on the last 4 types:

1 too new graphic card - wait until the driver arrived 1 month later
2 too old BIOS + drivers (T23) + a very old stationary.
1 too old BIOS (Medion portable).

So all considered, if the PC is not too old and is stationary, you are almost certain it will work right from my list.

If it is a new portable, You will come close to 100% success right off my list.

If it is an old portable with incompatible power features (ACPI) or limited BIOS addressing, this has to be taken care of, but it can work.

I have the remaining instructions ready for a well functional development workstation with many applications easy to use.

So when the first successful install (1 hour install typically, including the first 10 minutes setup of informations) then I will post the instructions, which will require less work than the initial install, but the computer will have to work for two-three hours to compile the tool chain.

@bussi04
Thank you for your work
I will try to comment tomorrow (not read all the other thread).

Eric

[nilrehob]

upgrade bios

I could not get ubuntu to load on my dell d600, I tried everything that was on the forum nothing seem to work so i installed windows xp back on it...I did get my avr can today in the mail...maybe ill try ubuntu again when i have more time ..

I have Ubuntu on three Dell laptops (I8000, I5000e, I4100) and two home-brewed stationaries (plus my kids and my neighbours computers).
If i remember correctly i have upgraded the bios on all of them at some point in time to make Ubuntu continue to run (could be when Ubuntu 7.10 was out).

Try upgrading your bios.
You should upgrade the bios anyway

/Hob

[Tecstatic]

@bussi04, everyone

OK, I must confess I'm not dressed by thorough reading to do everything right, but some I can say so far.

I searched in my archive and found Stanley Meyers Technical Brief.

From that I see we need a VIC also for the steam resonator.

As we can not count on a car having a distributor, I suggest we for a modular solution, make one PCB for each cylinder ( maybe 2 cylinders per PCB, it covers 2,4,6 and more even number of cylinders).

From how I read the patent we have one VIC per injector, H20power do you agree ?

As this for me is still a big partly non-detailed picture of the complete system I will spend the rest of this post on the process of doing the experimental work.

-------------------------------

I have several big IT projects fail, where the project management (too late) admit they should have started with a simplified prototype to prove the concept.

So let us not do that mistake. Let us go for something doable that proves the concept.

1. To my understanding, the steam resonator is just a cheap way to heat water. So This does not need to be the first we try to make, as a simple dip boiler can heat the water. On the other hand it is very "simple" compared to the remaining system. We have to make a VIC, and we have to make some tubes where the water could resonate and create the kinetic heating. If we could verify this effect, We have solved both the VIC and the steam resonator.

For this we just need the uC, the power driver, the VIC, a container and some tubes, a level sensor and a temperature sensor.
If this works as expected, we have good reason to proceed.

If this is an efficient means of heating, this alone is of value for everyone.

IMO this qualifies to be the first to make. Other opinions ?

----------------------------------

Regarding adjustment.

A modern VolksWagen has no adjustment. When a new ECU (Engine Control Unit) is inserted in a car, it is factory preprogrammed to make the car run reasonably, but certainly not optimal.

Alone the first 20km drive makes a great improvement because of the adaptive algorithms monitoring the engine parameters.

In the beginning the fuel mixture is rich not to harm the engine, then the internal parameters is gradually adjusted, as the computer learns more about the driving conditions.

Altitude above sea, fuel quality, environment temperature, correction factors on sensors tolerances, end up in fine tuning of ignition timing and fuel dosage and start sequence as a function of:

• air pressure
  environment temperature
  engine temperature
  RPM
  engine load
  fuel quality (knock sensor)
  inlet air flow.
  oxygen sensor(s)
  time since started
  pollution control.
  engine wear (total running time)
  
  And probably more not mentioned here.

To get a smoothly running engine, we can probably just drop the pollution control, as I don't expect pollution to be a problem, if the motor does not leak oil dripping to ground.

I don't have a clue how much of the exhaust is recirculated, but we probably still need the knock sensor, as too little recirculation results in much too high flame front velocity.

So in addition, to get a smoothly running engine, we also need a flow sensor on the exhaust recirculation, If we employ a small heat exchanger on the exhaust to cool the exhaust, and have the right internal shape before an ultrasound flow transducer, I think we can depend on water droplets in the air flow, so we can get a Doppler shift as a measure of the air speed. Combined with air temperature and tube geometry we have the mass flow of the recirculated exhaust. A regular air mass sensor will probably not work with the exhaust gas containing water droplets.

With inlet air mass flow through the gas processor, the amount of recirculated exhaust, the amount of water from the constant displacement pump, and the ionization level of the air inlet, I guess we have control of the fuel, we "just" then need the rest of the ordinary tricks from the ordinary engine control get a smoothly running car engine.

So when step 1 above has (hopefully) been finished OK, I suggest we continue with a furnace to learn to get fuel control. Then we learn to make the "whole" system without having to worry about CAN bus and related challenges, and the general motor optimization and adaptive algorithms.

I have once worked on making an adaptive controller of a stochastic process, it has its challenges also.

Having accomplished that, we can start the final adaption on the car.

Of cause this does not exclude to try on a car more early. I just guess they will run as lousy as the youngster's tuned Ford Escorts when I was a kid.

They maybe got 20% more power and ruined more or less the driveability of the car.

Today with eg. a VolksWagen and ECU you can raise the power at least 50% without sacrificing the smoothly running car still suitable for Sunday driving (and also a little racing).

So let me suggest we try to dissect the VIC, power driver and steam resonator, Then I will do my best to design the circuit diagram, and suggest a modular preliminary system design for your review and inputs based on bussi's diagram.

Any objections to this proposal ?

Eric

[bussi04]

first steps

...
So let me suggest we try to dissect the VIC, power driver and steam resonator, Then I will do my best to design the circuit diagram, and suggest a modular preliminary system design for your review and inputs based on bussi's diagram.

Any objections to this proposal ?

Eric

I agree to start that way.

starting with a simple configuration and making a complete system design at the same time is a good idea.

temperature control:
H2opower describes an alternative way to cool down the engine. instead of using exhaust gases he wants to reduce the charge of water mist and that way he gets a reduced flame temperature. nevertheless an overall concept must include reuse of exhaust gases.

greetings,
bussi04

[Tecstatic]

bussi04,

Thank you for the support

However I disagree with H20power about the temperature stuff, if you have referenced him correctly.

If you present an engine with too much heat input, and the cooling system is not capable to remove the heat losses, then the engine overheats.

You can remove the heat most efficiently with water cooling like in a modern car engine (not the old air cooled VW Beetles)

You can also cool the engine with the fuel. Did you know that the old Cesna airplanes use the evaporation heat of the fuel to cool the Lycomings or whatever name the engine has.

40%, repeat fourty percent of the fuel consumption is used for keeping the temperature down at lower altitudes. They are perfect engines to big oil, but don't speak about hydrocarbons pollution.

--------

Another subject to me is the speed of the flame front in the fuel, Stan calls it the burn rate, how fast the fuel burns or "explodes". Meyer speaks about the flame front speed, which must be adapted to the needs of the engine, i.e. the same as gasoline.

In my Tech Brief on page 2-5 fig. 2-2 the burn rate is displayed as 37-43 cm/sec for gasoline.

For hydrogen it is displayed as 265-325 cm/sec, close to 10 times faster.

If the flame speed propagation is too fast, then we get "knocking", which mechanically is very bad to the health of the engine.

When an engine is "knocking" it sounds a bit like broken glass, you have probably heard that sound on the Japanese cars I have mentioned, but also some English cars has had the problem to be fair.

For gasoline this property is described by the octane number.

Knocking is primarily a problem under hot external temperatures, low rpm and high load..

With low octane fuel you can:

- retard the ignition, which costs more fuel,
- lower the compression ratio, which costs more fuel,
- improve the shape of the combustion chamber to reduce "hot spots"
- improve the turbulence in the combustion chamber during ignition and combustion.

Or you can increase the octane number of the fuel with additives, ie. reduce the speed of the flame front.

If I remember right, the flame front speed in an ordinary engine is a mere 34 cm/second.
(I have close to 1m bookshelf engine literature, I remember that number from one of the books).

In a VW 1.8T the engine top (piston top and shape of the combustion chamber AND the location of the spark plug) is close to perfect (much better than the dual spark system of the Italian "Alfa Romeo" as for knocking properties.

In an airplane the twin ignition system exists for both the knocking improvement of the horrible combustion chamber design, and for safety).

The VW engine designers has with the 1.8T created one of best, if not the best turbo engine to date, with "low" fuel consumption (compared to other big oil technology), high compression ratio, knock sensors for engine protection and optimization and smooth running.

By the way do you know why a small airplane has a propeller in front. ?

- It sits there to cool the pilot, if it stops, he immediately starts sweating...
-------

Of cause a water car can cool the engine by water injection like it is done on some racing engines, but heating problems and knocking problems are two different "creatures" as I see it.

The reason I want to break down the solution to smaller steps, is the danger of facing too many different problems in one experimenting step, as simple as that.

This is what I had in mind when I wrote this in a previous post:

"I suggest we continue with a furnace to learn to get fuel control. Then we learn to make the "whole" system without having to worry about CAN bus and related challenges, and the general motor optimization and adaptive algorithms."

Eric

[h20power]

Hi Tecstatic,

From how I read the patent we have one VIC per injector, H20power do you agree ?

I have to say no on that one for each of the injectors are not firing at the same time. When firing times overlap then it is time for another VIC transformer is my thinking. For current will only be drawn if water mist is being sprayed through the injector, the rest of the time it is doing nothing and can even be shut off if the user wants too.

On the Steam Resonator from what I have seen of it in pitcures it is made of flat plates and it requires two VIC transformers, no EEC as far as I can tell. It's job is simple heat the water by molecular friction by making the water molecules switch back and forth. I think that is the only thing Meyer made very clear in all of his work

This is to be a challange to all is how I set it up in my thread. For there are many different ways to do the same thing and the more the maryer for it will make it even that much harder to stop when others start to duplicate each others work. So anyway one wishes to start is fine by me as for me I will be starting with the base circuit as it is something I know how to use and have most of the parts for to build it. I just posted how to wire up the VIC transformer and alternator for those still wishing to use the water fuel capacitor, but the showing is for use with the Gas Processor, water fuel injectors, as well as the WFC. For those three are hooked up the same for the most part and all of them are isolated circuits. In the WFC the water itself is the ground that completes the circuit for the electron extraction circuit(EEC).

There are so many ways to make use of water as a fuel source is why I will not hinder any from trying different ways, and in fact I encorage different ways as to add more diversity. Have fun all and remember to follow the scientific method of doing things, is all I ask.


h2opower.

@bussi04, everyone

OK, I must confess I'm not dressed by thorough reading to do everything right, but some I can say so far.

I searched in my archive and found Stanley Meyers Technical Brief.

From that I see we need a VIC also for the steam resonator.

As we can not count on a car having a distributor, I suggest we for a modular solution, make one PCB for each cylinder ( maybe 2 cylinders per PCB, it covers 2,4,6 and more even number of cylinders).

From how I read the patent we have one VIC per injector, H20power do you agree ?

As this for me is still a big partly non-detailed picture of the complete system I will spend the rest of this post on the process of doing the experimental work.

-------------------------------

I have several big IT projects fail, where the project management (too late) admit they should have started with a simplified prototype to prove the concept.

So let us not do that mistake. Let us go for something doable that proves the concept.

1. To my understanding, the steam resonator is just a cheap way to heat water. So This does not need to be the first we try to make, as a simple dip boiler can heat the water. On the other hand it is very "simple" compared to the remaining system. We have to make a VIC, and we have to make some tubes where the water could resonate and create the kinetic heating. If we could verify this effect, We have solved both the VIC and the steam resonator.

For this we just need the uC, the power driver, the VIC, a container and some tubes, a level sensor and a temperature sensor.
If this works as expected, we have good reason to proceed.

If this is an efficient means of heating, this alone is of value for everyone.

IMO this qualifies to be the first to make. Other opinions ?

----------------------------------

Regarding adjustment.

A modern VolksWagen has no adjustment. When a new ECU (Engine Control Unit) is inserted in a car, it is factory preprogrammed to make the car run reasonably, but certainly not optimal.

Alone the first 20km drive makes a great improvement because of the adaptive algorithms monitoring the engine parameters.

In the beginning the fuel mixture is rich not to harm the engine, then the internal parameters is gradually adjusted, as the computer learns more about the driving conditions.

Altitude above sea, fuel quality, environment temperature, correction factors on sensors tolerances, end up in fine tuning of ignition timing and fuel dosage and start sequence as a function of:

• air pressure
  environment temperature
  engine temperature
  RPM
  engine load
  fuel quality (knock sensor)
  inlet air flow.
  oxygen sensor(s)
  time since started
  pollution control.
  engine wear (total running time)
  
  And probably more not mentioned here.

To get a smoothly running engine, we can probably just drop the pollution control, as I don't expect pollution to be a problem, if the motor does leak oil dripping to ground.

I don't have a clue how much of the exhaust is recirculated, but we probably still need the knock sensor, as too little recirculation results in much too high flame front velocity.

So in addition, to get a smoothly running engine, we also need a flow sensor on the exhaust recirculation, If we employ a small heat exchanger on the exhaust to cool the exhaust, and have the right internal shape before an ultrasound flow transducer, I think we can depend on water droplets in the air flow, so we can get a Doppler shift as a measure of the air speed. Combined with air temperature and tube geometry we have the mass flow of the recirculated exhaust. A regular air mass sensor will probably not work with the exhaust gas containing water droplets.

With inlet air mass flow through the gas processor, the amount of recirculated exhaust, the amount of water from the constant displacement pump, and the ionization level of the air inlet, I guess we have control of the fuel, we "just" then need the rest of the ordinary tricks from the ordinary engine control get a smoothly running car engine.

So when step 1 above has (hopefully) been finished OK, I suggest we continue with a furnace to learn to get fuel control. Then we learn to make the "whole" system without having to worry about CAN bus and related challenges, and the general moter optimization and adaptive algorithms.

I have once worked on making an adaptive controller of a stocastic process, it has its challenges also.

Having accomplished that, we can start the final adaption on the car.

Of cause this does not exclude to try on a car more early. I just guess they will run as lousy as the youngster's tuned Ford Escorts when I was a kid.

They maybe got 20% more power and ruined more or less the driveability of the car.

Today with eg. a VolksWagen and ECU you can raise the power at least 50% without sacrificing the smoothly running car still suitable for Sunday driving (and also a little racing).

So let me suggest we try to dissect the VIC, power driver and steam resonator, Then I will do my best to design the circuit diagram, and suggest a modular preliminary system design for your review and inputs based on bussi's diagram.

Any objections to this proposal ?

Eric

[Tecstatic]

Hi h20power,

Thank you for the explanations

Did you notice I made an extra post 3 minutes before your last post ?

Eric

[h20power]

Just read it, and in short what I am doing is turning it into a steam engine for the most part. I use water to absorb the heat of the reaction and expand to push down the piston it's a mater of the phase diagram of water and waters latent heat of fusion. By alowing water to absorb the heat of the reaction, just like done in racing engines, I am using water to slove problems created by using water as a fuel source as intended by Stanley Meyer. That part is better explained in Albert Bow's work in his attempt to use water as a source of fuel. By combining the two technologies I belive it will solve the NO problems of just Meyers system alone, for we don't want any NO's being produced as that is a greenhouse gas. Nitrogen will also absorb the heat of the reaction, but water absorbs so much more, so by letting the water injectors run on the wet side I should be able to control the heat of the reaction so no Nitrous oxides are produced.

I wish I could post a pdf file of a study done by Arizona state aimed at introducing mechanics to hydrogen burning engines but I am out of attachment space. It is called, "HYDROGEN USE IN INTERNAL
COMBUSTION ENGINES."

OBJECTIVES
At the completion of this module, the technician will understand:
• the combustive properties of hydrogen that relate to its use as a combustive fuel
• the air/fuel ratio of hydrogen fuel mixtures and how it compares to other fuels
• the types of pre-ignition problems encountered in a hydrogen internal combustion engine and their solutions
• the type of ignition systems that may be used with hydrogen internal combustion engines
• crankcase ventilation issues that pertain to hydrogen use in an internal combustion engine
• the thermal efficiency of hydrogen internal combustion engines
• the type of emissions associated with hydrogen internal combustion engines
• the power output of hydrogen internal combustion engines
• the effect of mixing hydrogen with other hydrocarbon fuels

That was taken from the pdf I have of it.

Here is a site to the pdf file: http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogen...fs/fcm03r0.pdf

Hope that helps with learning to be safe when working with hydrogen, and note they don't talk about the ionization of oxygen(stripping of electrons) just prior to combustion so that is a whole new set of calculations that have to be done. But that is a course I had to take when I worked as a mechanic so many years ago. Now everyone reading this can have it and know that hydrogen was being thought of for use a long time ago. Enjoy everyone


h2opower.

Hi h20power,

Thank you for the explanations

Did you notice I made an extra post 3 minutes before your last post ?

Eric

[bussi04]

...
I wish I could post a pdf file of a study done by Arizona state aimed at introducing mechanics to hydrogen burning engines but I am out of attachment space. It is called, "HYDROGEN USE IN INTERNAL
COMBUSTION ENGINES."
That was taken from the pdf I have of it.

Here is a site to the pdf file: http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogen...fs/fcm03r0.pdf

Hope that helps with learning to be safe when working with hydrogen, and note they don't talk about the ionization of oxygen(stripping of electrons) just prior to combustion so that is a whole new set of calculations that have to be done. But that is a course I had to take when I worked as a mechanic so many years ago. Now everyone reading this can have it and know that hydrogen was being thought of for use a long time ago. Enjoy everyone


h2opower.

This article is most interesting,
thank you for sharing h20power,

greetings,
bussi04

[HMS-776]

Tecstatic & H2OPOWER

I posted some information explaining the Steam Resonantor a while back. It can be made in many different ways, with one, or two transformers.

Just keep in mind the Heating factors as stated on page 11-5, Tech brief:

-Pulse Width
-Voltage Aplitude
-Switching Frequency

With these factors known we can build a steam resonator which can be easily controlled with a simple temperature switch.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...resonator.html

[Tecstatic]

@HMS-776
Thank you for the reference, it is worth trying as it does not require much work.

Generally it is the most simple things that end up costing the most time.

I have designed a power PCB, where I changed the transformer core to something I have never used before, but it was a "simple" change.

Murphy was in, and the "simple" change was a fundamental error, which I unfortunately had to make layout and build the prototype to discover
Luckily I don't do something as stupid every day, I should have known better.

Now I have finally taken the time to redesign a part of the circuit, and the completely new layout puzzle has been solved, now I just need the final trimming before I make the first prototype.

I think this board is of general value for experimenting, and I hope I find no more problems with the coming prototype.

The circuit will be published so only the guys with installed tool chains will benefit from it.

I don't know what else can make you moving to do the simple and easy install for the vast majority.

Maybe we end up that one of Hob's kids show they can do it as the first.

As time goes by I begin to fear that even though the members here have a strong interest in "new" technologies and inventions, the forum members here generally avoid the microprocessor technology like it was the black death, even when offered guidance to avoid the pitfalls.

Eric

[bussi04]

count down - ready for take off

...
As time goes by I begin to fear that even though the members here have a strong interest in "new" technologies and inventions, the forum members here generally avoid the microprocessor technology like it was the black death, even when offered guidance to avoid the pitfalls.

Eric

hi tecstatic,

I have installed code:blocks, version control and kicad in an xp environment and feel ready to start now.
Installation was more than easy - no problem at all
Anyone reading this thread can go this way in less than 1 hour
If there should raise any problems under xp I will install the ubuntu under xp version, but I expect no need to do so.

up yet I haven΄t ordered the avr-can because I wanted to wait for the USBPROG decision. If there is no dependency I should order the experiment board immediately or the one you described in your recent post.

I believe we are more than 3 persons up yet and to my opinion we should proceed.

can I do something in general concept at the moment?

greetings,
bussi04