WFC white coating vs white gunk

[Aaron]

Felix Ehrenhaft

Magnetic "electrolysis", search for Felix Ehrenhaft in this forum and
check here:
Felix Ehrenhaft: Magnetic Current --- 9 articles

[sibernetik]

condition problems

hello everybody !

First i am sorry to my bad english

if you can understand me, i will be happy.

i solve my register problem for this forum,now i can write reply

thanks for our admins

i want your helps about my conditioning process

i make ravi cells and start my experiences

i think everything is normal for start

My tubes are 316L stainless steel tubes and i have got 1,2-1,3 mm (0,6+0,6 mm ) gap between inner and outer tubes.(25 cm long )

i sand inner tubes very thin sandpaper

my oscillator circuit work perfect

all my setup is ready ( VIC transformer, 1200 Volt HV diodes and chokes is ready )

but i can not make conditioning process very vell

i read some paragraphs in Ravi's D14 document but i cant understand it very well

when i make conditioning process i use very low amps (12 volt 10 mA )

i refresh water often ( when waters color turn to orange )

i dont use VIC or chokes in condition process ( like in D14 )

my test setup work all day and generate gas.Gas amount increase regular but after 4th or 5th day my white coats start to spill, i cant understand what is problem ?

Ravi tell about washing and drying in D14 document
(washing with detergent and rinse very well and drying to tubes with air dryer ) but i think this info is not open very well

i can try wash and dry process but i am not sure

i take a plastic bottle and fill water with detergent
i dip my tubes in this water 15-20 time after i wash it under the clean tap water and dry it

but white coats spill again

ravi tell his condition process like this shortly

1- 0,5 amps 25 minutes stop 30 minutes
2- 1,0 amps 20 minutes stop 30 minutes
3- 1,5 amps 15 minutes stop 20 minutes
4- 2,0 amps 10 minutes stop 20 minutes
5- 2,5 amps 05 minutes stop 15 minutes
6- 3,0 amps 120-150 seconds
7- 1 hour later start 1 again

is this steps imperative (must be ? )

i use only one test tube but ravi use 9 tubes

i think this amperages, high amount for only one tube so i use only 10 mA for one tube and i dont increase it through condition process.

is Tap waters quality can change the process ? Because our tap water include magnesium coat too

Can somebody help me ? Whats my problem ?

Or anybody have same problems ?

i wait your comments please

Thanks already

[sucahyo]

i want your helps about my conditioning process

I think you can get more answer by creating new thread with descriptive tittle.

Ravi tell about washing and drying in D14 document
(washing with detergent and rinse very well and drying to tubes with air dryer ) but i think this info is not open very well

From what I recall:
- Do not use soap or detergent
- Do not touch the cell with hand
- use only distilled water

I think washing only needed to remove brown residue.

To get coating, dry the cell directly without washing with the help of a fan.

is Tap waters quality can change the process ? Because our tap water include magnesium coat too

I think tap water should NOT be used.

For conditioning process you can get more answer here:
Discussions, Documentation and FAQ's

[sibernetik]

Thank you very much Sucahyo.

Are u sure to distilled water. I think distilled water dont contain any mineral
like calcium sodium or magnesium.
Distilled water contain only only H20 molecules so we cant get any coat form with distilled water.

But our tap water is very dirty.We cant drink it.We use basic refinement(clarify) device on our kitchens tap.

it make our waters more clear and soft but it dont get some minerals in to the water.

Ok i try this refined water and i open a new topic for this problem.

Thank you again

[ashtweth]

http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Ravi%20Cell.pdf

-------------------
Here is some new information thanks to Patrick please always check Pat's site he updates frequently with CRITICAL info

The key points for getting a Lawton-style cell working well are:

1. All inner and outer pipes need to be tuned to the same resonating frequency. Scott Cramton reckons that within 5 Hz of each other is ok. If you are using any clamps or bolts to make the electrical connections to the pipes, then these need to be in place before the tuning is carried out.

2. The inner pipes need to be held gently in position so that they can vibrate freely. It is probable that it is actually the torus-shaped vertical cylinder of water between the two pipes is what is being resonated.

3. It is essential that the outer face of the inner tube and the inner face of the outer tube, i.e. the two faces which are positioned very close together, need to have either a catalytic layer developed on them or coated with the insulating material which Scott uses. If this is not done, the hydrogen produced gets absorbed into the metal pipes (creating the catalytic layer) and not released as bubbles of hydroxy gas. Developing the catalytic layer can take a long time, but it is an essential part of the operation unless a suitable coating is used..

4. It is important to have a bi-filar coil with one of the windings connected on each side of the set of pipes. This boosts the 12V voltage pulses to 1,200 to 1,400 volts. It does not matter if the coil is wound on one straight ferrite rod or is on a torus or on a rectangular frame.

5. It is vital that the DC pulses have a very sharp rise time - a rise time so fast that they will not show on a 150 MHz oscilloscope. For this, the output FET needs to be chosen very carefully and substituting any old FET for a BUZ350 may well not work and the capacitance of some FETs is so high that the rise time of waveform which they produce is so degraded that it is not effective. Some FETs also need 10 volts applied to their gate in order to switch at all, so it is not sufficient to pick a substitute FET by just comparing the maximum current handling and the maximum voltage rating.

In passing, it might be remarked that the rate of gas production is directly proportional to the surface area of the (pipe) electrodes, so the longer the pipes and the greater their diameter, the greater the gas output with no increase in the input power required.

PJK

[sibernetik]

Ashtweth do you tell something about my problem ? (Conditioning problem )

My resonance circuit is working well,when i start the condition,2-3 days later,i can generate satisficer amount of gas but its not enough, we need agressive )
I am a music teacher and i calculate inner and outer tubes (my tubes ) frequencies (musical tones ) and after i use differend frequencies.All my setup is working well.

by the way I ask other question about connections of HV diodes



i get this two pics from Ravi's document,look at diodes connection orientations

tell me please which one is true ? I try each one,I think first connection is true.But please you corfirm,which one is true ?

I tell again, my big problem is about conditioning.I have got all versions of Ravi documents.I read it many times.May be i can overlook some details but i dont suppose i think.
I watch Ravis videos about conditioning.When he handle the inner tubes,his hands smudge with white coats.This is like a dream.
Why my tubes coats spill Anbody have got same problem ???

Help me please

thanks again

[sibernetik]

I suggest you IRFP 064N MOSFET

technical specs :

55 volt 80-110 amps 200 watt hexfet Mosfet

you can look from this link :

IRFP064N Datasheet pdf - 55V Single N-Channel HEXFET Power MOSFET in a TO-247AC package - International Rectifier

[sucahyo]

Are u sure to distilled water. I think distilled water dont contain any mineral like calcium sodium or magnesium.
Distilled water contain only only H20 molecules so we cant get any coat form with distilled water.

Bob boyce and some replicator get white coating with distilled water. Although some add electrolyte.


Method bellow are for plate conditioning process for brute force method using Bob boyce procedure:
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Wou...AllBooster.pdf

Some successful commercial boosters do not recommend any specific conditioning procedure. On the other hand, Bob Boyce strictly prescribes the following procedure for electrode cleansing and conditioning:

Plate Cleansing -"During this stage, we are operating in submerged plate condition, where the liquid level is maintained just over the plates. Run this cell stack at full power for several hours at a time, which can be 4 amps or more. As the cell stack runs, the boiling action will loosen particulate from the pores and surfaces of the metal. Be sure to do this in a well vented area. Shut down and pour this solution into a container. Rinse the cells well with distilled water. Filter the dilute solution through paper towels or coffee
filters to remove particulate. Pour the dilute solution back in and repeat this cleansing process. You may have to rinse and repeat many times until the cells stop putting out particulate matter into the solution. Optionally, you can use new solution each time you cleanse, but be forwarned, you can go through a lot of solution just in this cleansing stage. When cleansing is finished (typically 3 days of cleansing), do a final rinse with clean distilled water."

(Note that Bob's system use a 101 plate cell, thus full power is only 4
amps. For the WaterfuelForAll booster, full power would imply 20-25A)

Plate Conditioning - "Using the same concentration of solution as in cleansing, now fill the cell stack with dilute solution. Monitor current draw. If current draw is fairly stable, continue with this conditioning phase straight for 2 to 3 days, adding distilled water to just replace what is consumed. If the solution turns color or skims over with crud, the cell stack needs more cleansing stages. After 2 to 3 days of run time, pour out the diluted solution and rinse well with distilled water."

My recommendation would be to try and stick as close as possible to the procedure prescribed by Bob, for best results. Best would be to connect your booster to a regulated power supply during the break in period. (I'm using a PSU rated max 32A) But at the same time I have to confess that I have experienced little difference between different conditioning methods tested by myself. While we are not trying to achieve resonance (we are merely performing brute force electrolysis), and while we are using a good quality grade 316 stainless steel, I suspect that the exact method used for
conditioning does not matter so much, as long as the plates are never touched by bare hands or any other chemicals than NaOH or KOH.I think the most important point is to stick to using distilled water and just know that your booster will not start out at maximum gas production, but gas production will gradually increase during the first +-30 hours of operation.

[sibernetik]

I read your post with my bad english Now time is 05:22 a.m here.Everybody is sleeping.My brain can stop.So i will read your post and documents again but i think Bob BOYCE's electrolysis process is different.

BOYCE use low voltage and high current like faradays classic electrolysis process.(use 100-150 volt but its for 55-60 cells,each cell use aprox 1,2 volt )
Only he have got more cells.

Lawtons setup is transition step

and Meyers and Ravis electrolysis process is completely different
they dont use electrolyte and high amps we know.Resonance and ionisation of water molecules are important on their setups.

I will read your sended PDF document tomorrow.

I add my inner tubes pics (first days and seen perfect but later coats spill small pieces )

[topangler81]

hi ash, you are the most experience with the ravi style wfc. you said thet the tube must be tune to same frequency but when i look at ravi cell document its not there. ravi does not tune up the tubes. his cell works great even get pretty big bubbles. i tried it my self and after long hours of conditioning the cell works.

dave lawton also not tune the cell but only conditioned it.
its hard to tune the tubes.

i have two sets of cell.
the first tube is 5 inch tall 7 tubes
the second cell is 2 inch tall 7 tubes

when i run both of the tubes here is my findings
the 2 inch tall tubes makes more gas than the 5 inch tall tubes

both of the cell was conditioned and have thin layer of white powder coat.

http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Ravi%20Cell.pdf

-------------------
Here is some new information thanks to Patrick please always check Pat's site he updates frequently with CRITICAL info

The key points for getting a Lawton-style cell working well are:

1. All inner and outer pipes need to be tuned to the same resonating frequency. Scott Cramton reckons that within 5 Hz of each other is ok. If you are using any clamps or bolts to make the electrical connections to the pipes, then these need to be in place before the tuning is carried out.

2. The inner pipes need to be held gently in position so that they can vibrate freely. It is probable that it is actually the torus-shaped vertical cylinder of water between the two pipes is what is being resonated.

3. It is essential that the outer face of the inner tube and the inner face of the outer tube, i.e. the two faces which are positioned very close together, need to have either a catalytic layer developed on them or coated with the insulating material which Scott uses. If this is not done, the hydrogen produced gets absorbed into the metal pipes (creating the catalytic layer) and not released as bubbles of hydroxy gas. Developing the catalytic layer can take a long time, but it is an essential part of the operation unless a suitable coating is used..

4. It is important to have a bi-filar coil with one of the windings connected on each side of the set of pipes. This boosts the 12V voltage pulses to 1,200 to 1,400 volts. It does not matter if the coil is wound on one straight ferrite rod or is on a torus or on a rectangular frame.

5. It is vital that the DC pulses have a very sharp rise time - a rise time so fast that they will not show on a 150 MHz oscilloscope. For this, the output FET needs to be chosen very carefully and substituting any old FET for a BUZ350 may well not work and the capacitance of some FETs is so high that the rise time of waveform which they produce is so degraded that it is not effective. Some FETs also need 10 volts applied to their gate in order to switch at all, so it is not sufficient to pick a substitute FET by just comparing the maximum current handling and the maximum voltage rating.

In passing, it might be remarked that the rate of gas production is directly proportional to the surface area of the (pipe) electrodes, so the longer the pipes and the greater their diameter, the greater the gas output with no increase in the input power required.

PJK

[topangler81]

link broken

hi Aaron. the link u given are broken

Magnetic "electrolysis", search for Felix Ehrenhaft in this forum and
check here:
Felix Ehrenhaft: Magnetic Current --- 9 articles

[sucahyo]

hi Aaron. the link u given are broken

it works for me.

[Aaron]

cell conditioning and circuit I used

Someone asked me about the following vid and here is the details since I
just typed the whole thing out:

Thanks, that is the circuit for this vid:
YouTube - Stan Meyer concentric tube test

That was 36 watts with one tube connected.
12v @ 3 amps I think was leaving the variac.

I basically had a 2 prong power cord connected
to the variac and the ends were going to a full
bridge. The diodes were 1n4001's I think or something
similar in that series of diodes.

The diagram shows I was using negative as outside
tube and positive for inside tube. I thought it was
the other way around. Easy to switch and test
anyway.

Ground from bridge was to negative tube.

Positive was going through an inductor to then to
a positive tube.

The inductor was simply a spool of magnet wire
about 23 awg I think. I don't know how many turns
it had as I didn't wind it. I actually melted the spool
some. I can see if I can find it to see the size of
wire and the ohms from end to end then you can
calculate the winds...and length and diameter of
the air core.

The variac goes to 150v I think at has a 5amp max.

Over the conditioning period, more and more gas
would be created. A part of these cells that most
people don't realize is that there is definitely a
hydrogen loading process on one of the plates/tubes. That hydrogen accumulates and can
be released later. The conditioning process appears
to do this hydrogen loading then when up to a
certain amount, it seems to maintain a certain
saturation where the gas seems to be more than
normal.

My tubes have a 1mm gap and are about 6 inches
long. The outside tubes are about 1 inch longer
than the inside tubes. This is so the longer inside
tubes can extend below the bottom of the shorter
outside tubes. So when placed on the bottom of
the container, the outer tubes are elevated
up to an inch from the inside tubes, which gives
plenty of space for the water to enter the gap.

And you can see with that much gas production
bubbles sticking to the tubes is not even an issue.