Ionization & Water Fuel

[tutanka]

Hi tutanka

You mean by right sequence of ionization: to 1° ionize negatively and than positively... ? Imbalance? Have you thought about emitter like lithium cesium or sodium, potassium metal inside vacuum ss cylinder? Meyer told us he used a mix of argon and cesium for something i guess... He said that a hot filament would emit electrons (ions)...

I was thinking that if also the Nitrogen was positively charged it could actually form maybe N2H2 or even NH3 inside the combustion chamber during the explosion.. couldn't it?

Fabio,
The process is more simple.. no metal catalyst are needed, I don't use injector system I create gas outside of engine. Regards

[sebosfato]

So we can assume that you have:

1° an electrolyzer, witch
2° have the have the exhaust gases passing thru but before
3° passing thru a simple ionizer, maybe with 1 or more stages
4° thus you might be only using the exhaust as the input of air...
5° you don't use an arc discharge... (this maybe would need tungsten...)
6° you are using about 100W to do all this?


Do you need gasoline to start up the engine?

[Farrah Day]

Seb. OK, to me there is a logic in this reaction.

I'm studying molecular and atomic physics in the university, and in the last class i had a discussion on my theory about creating oh oh instead of h2o as exhaust and they think that it is possible if we ionize the oxygen negatively adding to it 1 electron because it would fill one of the 2 holes of the oxygen, allowing only one hydrogen to bound per oxygen atom. Thus combusting the hydrogen with more oxygen than that from electrolysis... Actually i thought that if we could fill both holes we would not allow the reformation of the H20.

However, it begs the question why would you want to end up with the OH- hydroxyl ion rather than water? What purpose would this serve?

edit: changing question...

If you break n2's triple bond, what does it try to attract to itself in that state?

If that atomic nitrogen is in the presence of atomic hydrogen, can nh3 form?

If n2 is split is the atomic nitrogen an ATOM of nitrogen, ION of nitrogen or both
at the same time?

For the same reason it has the affinity to form the molecule in the first place, it wants to fill it's outer shell with electrons to stabilize. Just as hydrogen and oxygen atoms will quickly reform into H2 and O2 molecules. When ozone is formed, by a molecule of oxygen dissociating and each atom joining with another O2 molecule to form O3, ionisation is not occuring. It effectively breaks cleanly into atoms. O3 is not an ion.

A nitrogen molecule can only dissociate into two atoms or two ions, not both, unless you provide a way of adding or extracting electrons.

If nitrogen ionised so that we had N+ and N-, the hydrogen affinity would logically produce NH4+ and NH2-.

The only way to get ammonia is by the reactions of atoms N and 3H.

Of course if any ionising does occur anywhere in the process, then reactions will be different.

But because the ionisation levels of oxygen and hydrogen are lower than that of nitrogen, clearly nitrogen would be the last gas to ionise, unless it was separted from air in the first place.

I'm unfamiliar with the resulting energy released when nitrogen recombines into molecules, but if it is proportionally similar to the recombination of atomic hydrogen, then this reaction alone might prove to be the best source of energy. After all, unlike H2, we don't have to use energy producing the N2 in the first place - we're surrounded by the stuff.

Could it be that ammonia is simply a useful by-product of atomic nitrogen recombing into molecules? But this would of course mean still going to the trouble of producing at least some H2... the mystery goes on.

Of course Tut apparently has all these answers, so it's a little frustrating for us all to have to play this guessing game. But I daresay it's what we've all come to expect.

Are you using a plasma arc somewhere in your process Tut?

Regards, Farrah

[vrand]

Fabio,
The process is more simple.. no metal catalyst are needed, I don't use injector system I create gas outside of engine. Regards

No metal catalyst is needed because a Magnet is used as natural EEC? Can a permanent magnet work, or need an electromagnet? A pulsed HV electromagnet?

Regards, Mike R.

[sebosfato]

Hi faraday

I believe that, reacting charged gases inside the combustion chamber would lead us to achieve certain reactions during combustion.

Meyer said that he could improve the energy yield by not allowing the water to reform.

I just figured that if we cheaply charge our air or exhaust gases positively by electrostatic induction, (the gas that is going to react with our initial HHO) we would have initially oxygen with maybe 3 open holes. This kind of oxygen could link to 3 H atoms, thus if you are injecting 3H2+3O (from electrolysis) and as output (after combustion) you have 2H3O + O You are not allowing the complete reformation of water.

i think that tutanka formula is like this:

Assuming that nitrogen is also charged it will tend to want to fill its holes too.

Thus if you input 3H2+30 and than have N2 charged positively you would form maybe 2N2H3+3O thus he takes this resulting gas to pass in a heat exchanger than inside the electrolyzer where the N2H3 ion will break the water into nitrogen and hydrogen. Somehow

Basically i think that he have a greater energy output because he is using the byproduct of the combustion to break the water molecule and at the same time to behave as a two combustible system. Hydrogen and amonia...

or maybe nitrogen hydroxide have a lower voltage limit than 1,24v...

Regards

[Aaron]

drawing?

I mean your drawing my friend. Can buy a nascent? plug in any auto parts store.

Please post the drawing or a link to the picture you're talking about. I have
no idea what you're talking about.

[Aaron]

@Farrah Day

For the same reason it has the affinity to form the molecule in the first place, it wants to fill it's outer shell with electrons to stabilize.

A nitrogen molecule can only dissociate into two atoms or two ions, not both, unless you provide a way of adding or extracting electrons.

If nitrogen ionised so that we had N+ and N-, the hydrogen affinity would logically produce NH4+ and NH2-.

The only way to get ammonia is by the reactions of atoms N and 3H.

Of course if any ionising does occur anywhere in the process, then reactions will be different.

But because the ionisation levels of oxygen and hydrogen are lower than that of nitrogen, clearly nitrogen would be the last gas to ionise, unless it was separted from air in the first place.

I'm unfamiliar with the resulting energy released when nitrogen recombines into molecules, but if it is proportionally similar to the recombination of atomic hydrogen, then this reaction alone might prove to be the best source of energy. After all, unlike H2, we don't have to use energy producing the N2 in the first place - we're surrounded by the stuff.

Could it be that ammonia is simply a useful by-product of atomic nitrogen recombing into molecules? But this would of course mean still going to the trouble of producing at least some H2... the mystery goes on.

Of course Tut apparently has all these answers, so it's a little frustrating for us all to have to play this guessing game. But I daresay it's what we've all come to expect.

Are you using a plasma arc somewhere in your process Tut?

Regards, Farrah

As far as ammonium nh4, do you think all four bonds hydrogen bonds are
identical?

In any case, according to your analysis, by splitting N2, will we wind up
with two nitrogen atoms that are equal in charge to each other?

Do you think that at 78% nitrogen in the air that just because it takes
less to split O2 and H2 that all that must be split first before any N2 is
split? Only N2 and O2 are in the air as far as what is concerned for
this process. So all the 21% O in the air has to be split before any nitrogen
can be split? Does that hold true if there is a lot of surface area of grids
and/or rods in a ionizer for example? Or do you think that having more than
3 times the amount of nitrogen than oxygen may just allow some to be
split even before all the O is split?

Nitrogen releases a tremendous amount of heat when recombining into N2.

You may find some of this nitrogen information interesting:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...-nitrogen.html

Only a small amount of "hho" is needed.

What property of the arc dissociates H2?

[Farrah Day]

Hi Aaron

Do you think that at 78% nitrogen in the air that just because it takes
less to split O2 and H2 that all that must be split first before any N2 is
split?

Yes. Higher energy reactions will always be preceded by lower energy reactions.

Only N2 and O2 are in the air as far as what is concerned for
this process. So all the 21% O in the air has to be split before any nitrogen
can be split?

Yes, that's how I see it.

Does that hold true if there is a lot of surface area of grids
and/or rods in a ionizer for example? Or do you think that having more than
3 times the amount of nitrogen than oxygen may just allow some to be
split even before all the O is split?

I really don't know if it holds true under every condition, it is only my opinion. It may well come down to how you intend to dissociate the N2. But to illustrate my point, if you consider ozone generators for example, you never hear of them dissociating nitrogen do you? And they reside in this sea of N2.

Nitrogen releases a tremendous amount of heat when recombining into N2.

Yes, I would have thought so, do you have any figures for this reaction. I have not yet looked further into this.

You may find some of this nitrogen information interesting:
Allotropic Nitrogen - Active Nitrogen

Only a small amount of "hho" is needed.

But this brings us back to my others point, if we are getting all the energy from the recombination of atomic nitrogen, what part is the HHO playing - if anything?

If solely for the creation of ammonia as a by-product... why go to all this trouble? Let's face it, ammonia is not a particularly nice product to be issuing forth from your exhaust pipe into the atmosphere.

Still no clear or distinct path to follow in all this yet. I'm still struggling to find any logical sequence of events that instantly make sense, and feel that my Eureka moment is still some way off yet.

What property of the arc dissociates H2?

You asked me this before and I'm unsure as to what specific answer you're looking for. Are you looking for heat?

The problem as I see it is that no one has yet laid down a specific set of events and reactions that take us logically from A - B. There seems to be much doubt about what reacts with what, where in the sequence of events these reactions actually take place, where the high energy exothermic reaction fits in, and indeed what the resulting 'ashes' are?

Clearly many people here have there own ideas, which greatly confuses and complicates the issue - particularly as no two ideas would seem to be the same.

The best thing for everyone to do would be to lay out their interpretation of the reactions and the sequence of events, from the very start, to the very finish. This way we could compare everyones views and analyse better the possible results.

Farrah

Remember: It's what we learn after we think we know it all that really counts!

[Farrah Day]

Forgot to respond to this:

As far as ammonium nh4, do you think all four bonds hydrogen bonds are
identical?

Honestly I don't know, but I would assume so. Remember however that as the nitrogen has one more proton than electron, it is NH4+, a molecular ion.

Farrah

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Nitrides

Hi All

This is something I want all to think about, if you take ANY nitride and mix it with ANY hydroxide, what do you get that is common to ALL?

Mike

[pengrove]

Hi All

This is something I want all to think about, if you take ANY nitride and mix it with ANY hydroxide, what do you get that is common to ALL?

Mike

a simple ion swapping reaction

[Michael John Nunnerley]

not what I am looking for

a simple ion swapping reaction

Reaction, yes, swapping is not the word for it and NO it is not what I am looking for as an answer.

They all go to form an explosive material, on their own, or in part of another mix. Nitrogen is the most important part, you FIX the nitrogen first and after you can make what you want.

Nitrogen fixation is the hardest part, it is so reactive once fixed that it will revert back to molecular nitrogen in 0.5sec or less by grabing one of its own

Mike

[pengrove]

Reaction, yes, swapping is not the word for it and NO it is not what I am looking for as an answer.

They all go to form an explosive material, on their own, or in part of another mix. Nitrogen is the most important part, you FIX the nitrogen first and after you can make what you want.

Nitrogen fixation is the hardest part, it is so reactive once fixed that it will revert back to molecular nitrogen in 0.5sec or less by grabing one of its own

Mike

When you have 60 bolts of lightning per second Nitrogen fixation is not a problem.

[Michael John Nunnerley]

When you have 60 bolts of lightning per second Nitrogen fixation is not a problem.

Then you are going to use an awful lot of energy for your 0.5sec fix

Mike

[pengrove]

Then you are going to use an awful lot of energy for your 0.5sec fix

Mike

I have it tuned in quite nicely. I am losing very little energy and dependability is looking to be at optimum.

I get too much heat at 240hz, 120 is nice.