Ionization & Water Fuel

[chasson321]

last edit...

[Aaron]

@Tim

Thanks Tim, the record can show that you and h2opower concede to the
fact that they cannot answer these questions.

So, basically, TIM (h2opower's messenger):

1. why does h2opower claim there is almost no nitrogen dissolved in
water when Meyer says it is 17% - 17% is HUGE.

2. why does h2opower claim nitrogen is just getting in the way when
Meyer spells out that the ionized gas, which IS ionized air, mostly nitrogen,
is receiving the electron from the splitting of water, splitting of water gas,
splitting of vapor, etc... bottom line, the nitrogen is absorbing the electron
to keep the hydrogen and oxygen from recombining.

[Aaron]

nitrogen doesn't just "get in the way"

"electrons are ejected from the water molecule and absorbed by ionized gases" - Stanley Meyer

[dave_cahoon]

NOT Equal to Dogma

This paper explains the difference between HOT plasma reactions, and COLD corona reactions.

http://mechse.illinois.edu/research/...FW/Fridman.pdf

Understanding this type of chemistry is a must.

Dave

[sebosfato]

Bad news

I have some bad news for the ionization theory...

No electron or ion positive or negative or charge can remain charged inside the cylinder of an engine under pressure without discharging instantaneously by the millions of contacts per sec (gas molecules shake or collides like crazy under pressure) contact with the cylinder metal! Also because of the same effect on van de graf. Because no electron or charge can stay in the middle of a conductor! (the cylinder)

Hi Isolating Hi Temperature and self lubricating Ceramics need to be used to cover the cylinder and the head and piston!

The engine must be charged entirely!

This way ionization may have a sense! For a specialist in molecular Physics

She said that using Led Is possible to help the energy aperture of the atom to help giving to it a charge because of a principle that two low energy photons can reach the atom at the same time.

If i was you guys, i would stop guessing and would really study molecular physics, materials physics, and plasma physics...

I'm already doing this!

I hope my words could help!

Oxygen love electrons!

Nitrogen in atomic configuration is very reactive

N2 conversion into N + N is endothermic. Needs energy!

She said that de-energized water molecule does not exist and that this can maybe mean that he created other type of molecule as exhaust...

She said that H3O+ Or OH- as i proposed is not possible because how combustion happen, and that H3O+ or H+ can exist only in water form.


You still don't understand the humans.

[Aaron]

spark circuit

If you remove the switch, the diode and , the coil so that the only way the cap will discharge is with a dead short at plug electrodes...., What do we have to add to our fuel to get our dead short?
And if our fuel making process consists of air, water and electricity..., What kind of spark plug (that we can buy from any auto parts store) will be best suited to the process?

I see, thanks.

So, you want the fuel/air mixture to be the trigger for the cap to discharge
across a gap that is bigger than the the voltage of the cap can jump
on its own.

If the air itself is ionized, it is a conductive medium that can cause a spark
across a gap at relatively low voltages...lower than what is supposed to
jump the gap without the conductive air. I don't know if a 400v cap
for example can jump a sparkplug with just ionized air, I'm sure it is possible
but don't know how practical.

With the vapor or liquid fuel, water, nh3, whatever, there is going to be
some conductivity but I think it is mostly going to be misted instead of
a good solid drop that will short the gap on the plug so I think HV is still
needed.

Whatever the case may be, surface gap geometry is what Peter and I
had the best results on our lawnmower tests - that was with humidifier
hot moisture mixed with nothing but gas vapor...we had the jet turned
all the way in so just the idle jet was letting in some gas but we were
able to get full power at full throttle with the plasma, hot moisture and
gas vapor. The plug that we used simply had the j-strap cut off and ground
smooth (around the rim).

You can buy resistor-less surface gap plugs off the shelf. Not all shops
carry them. Not sure if they're available in tungsten. But you can sure
order them online. Champion, NGK and most main companies make them.
And if they are in tungsten, it will only be the center electrode.

[sucahyo]

Give facts to back up the bad news

No electron or ion positive or negative or charge can remain charged inside the cylinder of an engine under pressure without discharging instantaneously by the millions of contacts per sec (gas molecules shake or collides like crazy under pressure) contact with the cylinder metal! Also because of the same effect on van de graf. Because no electron or charge can stay in the middle of a conductor! (the cylinder)

Explain how Ashtweth can measure current in the GEET pipe then. Explain why no one need ceramic coating on 80% water as fuel in a GEET system. French even dare to use it on helicopter!

It is impossible for all molecule in the pipe to be in contact with the metal, it will be only part of it. Metal corrode if there is constant DC polarity. If the metal is same, there would be no corrotion since all would have the same charge, same voltage, same polarity.

The bolt at a bridge corrode because different metal create a potential that will allow electrolysis process to happen. Salty water accelerate the process. The one that corrode first is the more positive one. This also show that you need a conducting liquid for corrotion. How many ohm is ionized air?

[sebosfato]

Explain how Ashtweth can measure current in the GEET pipe then. Explain why no one need ceramic coating on 80% water as fuel in a GEET system. French even dare to use it on helicopter!

It is impossible for all molecule in the pipe to be in contact with the metal, it will be only part of it. Metal corrode if there is constant DC polarity. If the metal is same, there would be no corrotion since all would have the same charge, same voltage, same polarity.

The bolt at a bridge corrode because different metal create a potential that will allow electrolysis process to happen. Salty water accelerate the process. The one that corrode first is the more positive one. This also show that you need a conducting liquid for corrotion. How many ohm is ionized air?

hi sucayo

whenever you have heat in one side of a metal or conductor, you have a flow of heat from the heat side going in the direction of the cold side. (electrons goes in the direction of the cold side)

Actually even air at 0° celsius inside a jar, is colliding with the walls of the jar at very very high speed.

The fact that the gas enter inside the engine and the engine is a conductor, get all the possibilities of having or at least think that this air is ionized.

I believe that if you charge the all engine maybe positively, this could be possible but is very hard since it will be discharging into the ground.

I think that maybe for it to work we should create an engine witch have its control circuits at a referential of maybe 40kv everything isolated.

Thinking about when there is explosions inside the engine a hell of ions could make the engine build up a charge.

Because of the van de graff effect, the thermoelectric effects...

I'm starting to think that meyer also used the Lenz's law BEMF cancelation on his original vic to create all the energy. (like what the guys are talking about in the other thread)

we know that he had an electric pulse generator....

[sucahyo]

The fact that the gas enter inside the engine and the engine is a conductor, get all the possibilities of having or at least think that this air is ionized.

Please explain how a gas inside a conductor get ionized.

I believe that if you charge the all engine maybe positively, this could be possible but is very hard since it will be discharging into the ground.

Are you suggesting that air inside van degraf copper sphere will react too not just betweent the HV polarity?

[sebosfato]

Hi sucayo I wanted to mean

The fact that the gas enter inside the engine and the engine is a conductor, (similar to a van de graf or a cylinder) (and grounded) cancel all the possibilities of keeping air minimally charged or "ionized".

This is because no electron can remain in the middle of a conductor.

Think of a metallic sphere and you put an electron inside of it. It will immediately move toward the metal just because of the geometry even not having a voltage. !!!

Thats why in the van de graf generator they charge the sphere from inside, this way they can always charge and charge and again charge because inside the sphere the electric charge will always be zero. This is how its possible to generate millions of volts with a piece of plastic...

I aways believed that the fact that meyer used the positive electrode the outside cylinder had something to do with this!!! I believe that somehow he used this geometric configuration to lower the needed energy to accomplish the electrolysis. The delrin around and inside the cylinders even should help by allowing the cylinder to hold the charge.

All i'm saying is that inside a van de graf the charge should be zero. or inside an engine or inside a tube.

And that if you put an ion inside this cylinder it will readily discharge.

I was guessing that if you could charge the entire engine than something would change. But i'm not sure of it. But if you think about, having the engine charged positively, when you inject positive ions, when they touch the cylinder they should not discharge because it is already charged up to 40kv where corona is already happening...

I believe that this is one of the reasons why he used a buggy simple engine...

I think that if we could have the piston at least covered with ceramic but having a small point in the top of it metallic, and the block of the engine isolated by some ceramic, we could generate electricity, straight from combustion. Because when the explosion happens is quite easy to have a voltage as result of the plasma (explosion) + van de graf effect + theromoelectric.

Maybe the spark plug can do this for us... to be this isolated positive contact.

If we could have a car with two spark plugs we could measure if there is voltage in the other while leaving it disconnected... I guess

+

If we have plasma as exhaust crossing magnetic fields MHD electricity could be generated.

( maybe one could do this test )

would require a high voltage dc probe to measure the charge accumulated in the cylinder.

To put the spark plug in a metallic cylinder and just apply 40kv negative in the center electrode of the spark plug and see what happen. with the voltage
and if a spark could happen...
Regards

[sebosfato]

OHHH Look at this!

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/P6.pdf

[pengrove]

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/P6.pdf

How does this relate? I see that they are adding ammonia to water so that it will take on a Positive charge. But I fail to see the relationship here.

[Aaron]

thermionic emission

This is because no electron can remain in the middle of a conductor.

And that if you put an ion inside this cylinder it will readily discharge.

Have you considered thermionic emissions from different hot metal(s) in the engine?
Also, the heat of the mixture from pressure?

[sucahyo]

The fact that the gas enter inside the engine and the engine is a conductor, (similar to a van de graf or a cylinder) (and grounded) cancel all the possibilities of keeping air minimally charged or "ionized".

I believe in the attraction and repulsion theory. The enclosing wall may have polarity, the ion that is most opposite with the wall polarity will try to get closer, and the ion that is most similar will try to distance.

This is because no electron can remain in the middle of a conductor.

I don't use electron stripping theory.

Think of a metallic sphere and you put an electron inside of it. It will immediately move toward the metal just because of the geometry even not having a voltage. !!!

I don't understand. Even if the wall more negative than the electron?

I aways believed that the fact that meyer used the positive electrode the outside cylinder had something to do with this!!! I believe that somehow he used this geometric configuration to lower the needed energy to accomplish the electrolysis. The delrin around and inside the cylinders even should help by allowing the cylinder to hold the charge.

I think electrolysis need potential difference, if there is no potential difference, how charging the car help electrolysis?

I was guessing that if you could charge the entire engine than something would change. But i'm not sure of it. But if you think about, having the engine charged positively, when you inject positive ions, when they touch the cylinder they should not discharge because it is already charged up to 40kv where corona is already happening...

How do we charge the whole car positively? We charge it more positive compare to what?

I think that if we could have the piston at least covered with ceramic but having a small point in the top of it metallic, and the block of the engine isolated by some ceramic, we could generate electricity, straight from combustion. Because when the explosion happens is quite easy to have a voltage as result of the plasma (explosion) + van de graf effect + theromoelectric.

I think it is easier to capture vortex iduced electricity than by movement.

[sebosfato]

Hello pen grove

That tell us a nice way to have water vapor ions... and or how to extract some electricity from this event or how to have charged droplets of water.

I was researching if something like i proposed as have ions like H3O+ or OH- at the exhaust could be possible. Still didn't found an answer to it!

Hello Aaron

The temperatures a common engine runs Is impossible to create thermo emission by the metal and even if there were, this free electrons would run in the direction of the metal because in the middle of a conductor there always be charge = to 0.

The metal need to glow red to emit electrons.

Once i though if were possible a way to speed up free electrons from a glowing coil and than convert this free acceleration by only induction into electrical energy by having something like water there between that could use the kinetic energy of this electrons and be converted into h2...
( was like if inside of the inside cylinder of meyer there was something that made the difference... ) it remained only a theory =) yet

I consider that maybe there is a possibility of the explosion to reach ionization and that maybe during this stage by having the conductor around (the cylinder) it will absorb the freed electrons. This could generate electricity somehow (if ionization to some degree is reached, and this is what i was trying to refer in the last post.

Hello sucahyo


1° quote

This happens in linear condition like a charged plate and a charged ion...
inside the cylinder that will not be at the same charge of the gas there is already many variables that change everything...

2° quote

I don't use either, but if we agree that we can minimally charge the gas positively we should agree that to a small degree it will have a little deficiency of electrons.

3°

Because of the geometry inside any cylinder will be positive i think and outside negative if i understood well. Who discovered this was professor van de graf in mit. In the course of electricity and magnetism that you can find in the you tube there is a lesson where the professor show that when you add the charge inside a sphere this charge will always have a different potential than the negative charge outside the sphere- thus if you keep adding charge inside you build up a higher voltage DC outside than your source of voltage.. I may be right to assume that he was adding positive voltage charge, right? but look that I'm not sure because now i few a bit confuse because lasts physicists i heard in general confuse and just say charge for everything positive and negative... sorry i will check that when i return,,,

4°
I believe that charging the car could help to maintain the so wanted ionization. . if reached
5°
I think that if the negative side of the battery could be somehow isolated from the car we could just apply high voltage positive to the engine block and it would charge positively. Might be dangerous because of the high area of the car to become a big capacitance... And could discharge in someone grounded who touch it....

6°
I don't understand what vortex electricity you mean...

Regards