Ionization & Water Fuel

[Aaron]

the color purple

Very interesting, is the tungsten contributing to that color?

Is that open air or open air + water mist?

I've seen white, bluish, green and even touches of red but don't
think I've seen that distinct color of purple before with the plasma.

[Jetijs]

Hi Aaron.
I use tungsten electrodes on my plasma setup that I demonstrate to people that are interested in this. It always gives blue/white plasma burst.

[sucahyo]

Hello,
HEAT is important for obtain reaction but my reactor is ONLY chambre of combustion not outside reactors are used.. in part can be used GEET .. but only for use heat from exaust gas. Regards

Thanks . I forgot that there is weakness in utilizing exhaust heat. Some of the chemical reaction above is endothermal (absorb heat). It is possible that in some condition the engine will run cool because it produce cold explosion...


Some more chemical reaction in heat:
Catalytic converter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Since 1981, three-way catalytic converters have been used in vehicle emission control systems in North America and many other countries on roadgoing vehicles. A three-way catalytic converter has three simultaneous tasks:
1. Reduction of nitrogen oxides to nitrogen and oxygen: 2NOx → xO2 + N2
2. Oxidation of carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide: 2CO + O2 → 2CO2
3. Oxidation of unburnt hydrocarbons (HC) to carbon dioxide and water: CxH2x+2 + [(3x+1)/2]O2 → xCO2 + (x+1)H2O

...
Unwanted reactions can occur in the three-way catalyst, such as the formation of odiferous hydrogen sulfide and ammonia (NH3). Formation of each can be limited by modifications to the washcoat and precious metals used. It is difficult to eliminate these byproducts entirely.

We can assume that NH3 always produced. Maybe this is the reason for why water injection can improve ICE performance.


Also ammonia can help reduce NOx:
Selective catalytic reduction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

4NO + 4NH3 + O2 → 4N2 + 6H2O
2NO2 + 4NH3 + O2 → 3N2 + 6H2O
NO + NO2 + 2NH3 → 2N2 + 3H2O

The ideal reaction has an optimal temperature range between 630 and 720 K, but can operate from 500 to 720 K with longer residence times.

Iron- and copper-exchanged zeolite urea SCRs have been developed with approximately equal performance to that of vanadium-urea SCRs if the fraction of the NO2 is 20% to 50% of the total NOx.[4] The two most common designs of SCR catalyst geometry used today are honeycomb and plate. The honeycomb form usually is an extruded ceramic applied homogeneously throughout the ceramic carrier or coated on the substrate. Like the various types of catalysts, their configuration also has advantages and disadvantages. Plate-type catalysts have lower pressure drops and are less susceptible to plugging and fouling than the honeycomb types, but plate configurations are much larger and more expensive. Honeycomb configurations are smaller than plate types, but have higher pressure drops and plug much more easily.[1]

Selective non-catalytic reduction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The process involves injecting either ammonia or urea into the firebox of the boiler at a location where the flue gas is between 760 and 1,093 °C (1,400 and 1,999.4 °F) to react with the nitrogen oxides formed in the combustion process.

4 NO + 4 NH3 + O2 -> 4 N2 + 6 H2O

The reaction mechanism itself involves NH2 radicals that attach to NO and then decompose.

The reaction requires a certain temperature range to be effective, typically 760 to 1,093 °C (1,400 to 1,999 °F), otherwise the NO and the ammonia don't react. Ammonia that hasn't reacted is called ammonia slip and is undesirable, as the ammonia can react with other combustion species, such as sulfur trioxide (SO3), to form ammonium salts.[2]

At temperatures above 1093 °C ammonia decomposes:
4 NH3 + 5 O2 -> 4 NO + 6 H2O

In that case NO is formed instead of reduced. Thus the reaction needs a specific temperature window to be efficient. The reaction also needs sufficient reaction time in that temperature window.

The reason for long ammonia post is I think ammonia hold the key for more cold combustion.

[Aaron]

thermal

Sucahyo,

I think the term "Thermal Explosive Energy" is disqualified from any definition
of "cold explosion".

You have to ask yourself this one question, "How do I get the combustion
of water fuel to push my piston down with strong enough force?"

Cold explosion is quick fast popping of the gas
that doesn't really give a punch. It recombines into water forming a vacuum
by the decrease in volume. That isn't what we want.

The Thermal method is active nitrogen and h1 giving EXPANSION and it's
apparently hot.

[sucahyo]

I think the term "Thermal Explosive Energy" is disqualified from any definition of "cold explosion".

You have to ask yourself this one question, "How do I get the combustion of water fuel to push my piston down with strong enough force?"

Cold explosion is quick fast popping of the gas that doesn't really give a punch. It recombines into water forming a vacuum by the decrease in volume. That isn't what we want.

Not before it explode. I am talking about the event after the explosion. The endothermic reaction part do not start before reaching very high temperature.

What you describe sound more like implosion after small explosion. I am talking about temperature after the combustion chamber reach plasma temperature.

I think the exothermic reaction(NH3/ammonia creation) will happen along with the first fire and help catalyst the burning. After the temperature reach the endothermic reaction requirement (HNO3 creation) it will made a bigger bang and sudden temperature drop because of big energy requirement, along with greener gas output. Only theory though.

[tutanka]

Not before it explode. I am talking about the event after the explosion. The endothermic reaction part do not start before reaching very high temperature.

What you describe sound more like implosion after small explosion. I am talking about temperature after the combustion chamber reach plasma temperature.

I think the exothermic reaction(NH3/ammonia creation) will happen along with the first fire and help catalyst the burning. After the temperature reach the endothermic reaction requirement (HNO3 creation) it will made a bigger bang and sudden temperature drop because of big energy requirement, along with greener gas output. Only theory though.

Hello,
This is my consideration after test, thermal explosive energy is reached ONLY using an catalist because you forget that you use only water that not burn usually. In fact new fuel mixture must be unstable, water is stable so it does not react. Object of that project is create unstable mixture for reach an fastly exothermic reaction because you want use that into an engine that run at some rpm. We have called that "micronic fuel mixture" that react only with nascent plug and plasma. About Meyer.. I'm sure that inside injector of meyer is created low amount of catalist, not all water droplets are transformed inside..

[rosco1]

Members of the team.

As tutanka has written previously, explosive thermal energy is comprised of more than one stage, the most important stage is the Nascent plug.

Tutanka and myself would very much like to formally introduce the readers to Moose 53, who is very much an integral part of this team.

While he obviously likes to keep a low profile, it's only fitting that everyone here be aware of who the third member of the team is.

[Aaron]

Hi Moose and misc...

Welcome Moose 53! I remember you briefly in the water sparkplug thread.

-----------------------------------

I'm just posting some various references for my own convenience,
not sure if anyone is interested but it deals with nitrogen/hydrogen/oxygen
power.

------------------------------------

Misc blurb about active nitrogen: "The atomic oxygen radicals ressociation is catalyzed by the "active nitrogen" (the ionized nitrogen) and process that involved a big clearance of Energy - the contact of atomic oxygen radicals with active nitrogen generates a plasma of several tens of thousands Kelvin moving with 25 -30 km / sec, Which could be accelerated by an MHD accelerator using appropriated magnetic fields, and by cooling that become plasma AIR, clear air ..."

That was looked at for propulsion.

-------------------------------------

20010093231 North American Aviation, Inc., Los Angeles, CA USA
Active Nitrogen as a Possible Fuel for Jet Propulsion Systems
Dixon, T. F., North American Aviation, Inc., USA; Aug. 08, 1947; 13p; In English
Report No.(s): AL-313; No Copyright; Avail: CASI; A03, Hardcopy; A01, Microfiche
There is a belief that the energy available in excited forms of nitrogen may be utilized as a power source for jet-propelled
devices. Very little is known, however, of the properties of active nitrogen. The theoretical performance of active nitrogen and
liquid hydrogen as a propellant system is high, though the assumed difficulty of maintaining nitrogen in a liquid state is prohibitive
for its success as a jet propulsion fuel.
CASI
Liquid Hydrogen; Nitrogen; Liquid Rocket Propellants; Propellant Properties

-------------------------------------

This is just the first page available of this article...

The Nascent State...
The nascent state - Journal of Chemical Education (ACS Publications and Division of Chemical Education)

The nascent state

J. H. Reedy and E. D. Biggers
J. Chem. Educ., 1942, 19 (9), p 403
DOI: 10.1021/ed019p403
Publication Date: September 1942


"Davy noticed in 1807 that electrolytic hydrogen will combine with nitrogen
in the presence of water, while ordinary hydrogen will not."




------------------------------

Sir Humphry Davy:
sir humphry davy - Google Search
Sir Humphry Davy
Humphry Davy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

-------------------------------

Would love copies of these if anyone can get them

Dini, D., "Closed Cycle Water Steam (from H2/02/
H20 Combustion) Car," in Hydrogen Energy
Progress IX, Edited by T.N. Veziroglu and C.
Derive-J. Pottier, International Association for
Hydrogen Energy, Coral Gables, FL, p. 1351, 1992.

30. Dini, D., "Nitrogen/Hydrogen Automotive Engine to
Avoid Atmospheric Pollution," in Hydrogen Energy
Progress VIII, Edited by T.N. Veziroglu and P.K.
Takahashi, Pergamon Press, Elmsford, N.Y., p. 1363,
1990.

Feasible Non-Polluting Car Engines Using Air-Water Components

Document Number: 911702
Date Published: September 1991
Author(s):
Dino Dini - University of Pisa
Abstract:
The paper is dealing alternative non-polluting engines for driving cars. Only air-water system components are used as working and heating fluids. Through optimization processes, gaseous nitrogen, oxygen and hydrogen, from air and water, may be obtained at acceptable energy (solar or nuclear) need, to be converted in liquid form at low cost. Using such cryogenic liquid fluids, solutions are proposed for car heat engines not producing air pollution and greenhouse warming, i.e.: 1) high pressure and temperature multiple expansion reciprocating engine, with water steam as working fluid produced in a H\d2/O\d2/H\d2O combustion chamber. In a closed cycle, water steam is condensed by an air-radiator; and 2) superheated and reheated nitrogen in a double acting reciprocating gas expander, whose open cycle get heat from hydrogen-air combustion.
File Size: 1317K
Product Status: In Stock
See other papers presented at Aiec, August 1991, Warrendale, PA, USA, Session: Aiec

---------------------------------------------------

[Aaron]

WFC consideration

@All,

For the "HHO" cells, there is a very consistent concept of bubbling
air into the bottom of the hho cell according to many of the posts claiming
"nitrogen hydroxide." And heat seems to especially help in the water
separation process.

It would be easy enough to use heating elements, etc... to warm air but
when an engine is running, there are multiple sources of heat that are
automatic...

pcv output (blow by) - it is warm but not sure how much air output there
is.

exhaust heat or exhaust itself - this is used by geet and of course has
plenty of volume of "air" and definitely hot.

radiant heat from engine itself - heat but no air.

Another component is that in those websites about "nitrogen hydroxide",
they also incorporate magnetic fields with the HHO cell. I don't know if
it is necessary or just an enhancement. But there are claims it seriously
increases the bonding of nitrogen to hydroxy..supposedly. Even if they
don't know the chemistry, by observation they could still be aware that
they get better results with magnetic fields than without.

It could be permanent magnets or coils. I'd prefer permanent magnets
since it doesn't need a power source that we have to provide.

Murlin mentions:
"I believe copper intake tubes along with heat, helps this process to take place as the water inside the cell is heated."

and

"It just requires a tad of vacuum, some copper, water and heat and a battery...."

I have to still think out the copper deal, still designing my preferred
air/gas processor in my head.

1. hho cell
2. warmth (by "electrolysis" current anyway) and/or air from pcv or exhaust
like the geet
3. vacuum (which should happen through bubbler by venturi effect being
ducted into intake)
4. magnetic field
5. bubbled air (most nitrogen hydroxy pages talk about this a lot)
6. possibly koh from lye is needed as electrolyte - helps or hurts?
not sure of chemistry

Any comments?

[Aaron]

nitrogen hydroxide posts

NEMO ALERT: Australian Fuel System Alternate-Energy

"Air is bled in small amounts into the cell done by the suction of the engines intake strokes"

"Also according to the information source complementing a copper electromagnet on the anode improves the nitrogen fuel synthesis. Wrap insulated copper wire into a coil then wrap the coil around the anode of the cell and connect to the anode in series, apprantly this will improve the nitrogen hydroxide synthesis up to 10 times."

"The magnetic wire wrap helps strip gas bobbles from the anode and cathode of the chamber so that more gas bubbles can be produced."

"1) You've got electrolytic action on a very weak electrolyte.

2) You are using stream water and a very few grains of rock salt as a one time catalyst.

3) You are only reacting 12 volts DC on the chamber mixture.

4) You are pulling a lot of fresh air into the chamber which is mostly made up of nitrogen.

5) Once the chamber has been run for a while it generates approximately 13.7 volts on its own, just like a battery.

6) Unlike the other systems out there, the fuel gas is nitrogen hydroxide and not oxygen and/or hydrogen."

Anyway, all those are from the link at the top, read them in context and
check out the other links in this thread:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...hydroxide.html

You can see the consistent talk of bubbling air into the cell, magnetic
field, warmth of cell, etc...

[sucahyo]

For the "HHO" cells, there is a very consistent concept of bubbling air into the bottom of the hho cell according to many of the posts claiming "nitrogen hydroxide." And heat seems to especially help in the water
separation process.

It would be easy enough to use heating elements, etc... to warm air but
when an engine is running, there are multiple sources of heat that are
automatic...

Might as well build the HHO cell in paralel (not in series like what usually done) and don't care wether the water reach boiling temperature. Who knows that water vapour might actually help .

I think the use of electrolyte should be avoided, some say that Na or K foam will form on the engine inside. One of the extreme example is the piston got coated with brown enamel, don't know if it is from iron oxide or from NaOH foam.

The link give me error: "this ip is banned".

[tutanka]

NEMO ALERT: Australian Fuel System Alternate-Energy

"Air is bled in small amounts into the cell done by the suction of the engines intake strokes"

"Also according to the information source complementing a copper electromagnet on the anode improves the nitrogen fuel synthesis. Wrap insulated copper wire into a coil then wrap the coil around the anode of the cell and connect to the anode in series, apprantly this will improve the nitrogen hydroxide synthesis up to 10 times."

"The magnetic wire wrap helps strip gas bobbles from the anode and cathode of the chamber so that more gas bubbles can be produced."

"1) You've got electrolytic action on a very weak electrolyte.

2) You are using stream water and a very few grains of rock salt as a one time catalyst.

3) You are only reacting 12 volts DC on the chamber mixture.

4) You are pulling a lot of fresh air into the chamber which is mostly made up of nitrogen.

5) Once the chamber has been run for a while it generates approximately 13.7 volts on its own, just like a battery.

6) Unlike the other systems out there, the fuel gas is nitrogen hydroxide and not oxygen and/or hydrogen."

Anyway, all those are from the link at the top, read them in context and
check out the other links in this thread:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...hydroxide.html

You can see the consistent talk of bubbling air into the cell, magnetic
field, warmth of cell, etc...

Hello,
You send on thread more informations but in fact don't understand how you want to go.. can you explain better your idea? Regards

[Aaron]

plan of action

The post you quoted was simply me showing references to those that
claim that they have "nitrogen hydroxide" successful experiments are
doing a few specific things, bubbling air into the hho cell, etc...

The direction I would go was in the message before that:

1. hho cell
2. warmth (by "electrolysis" current anyway) and/or air from pcv or exhaust
like the geet
3. vacuum (which should happen through bubbler by venturi effect being
ducted into intake)
4. magnetic field
5. bubbled air (most nitrogen hydroxy pages talk about this a lot)
6. possibly koh from lye is needed as electrolyte - helps or hurts?
not sure of chemistry

-------------------------------------------------------------

That is just for the HHO cell and does not address the air.

I would do the above for the HHO cell and I would treat the air
with the AP you diagrammed, hairdryer type circuit with lights and
magnetic field.

I would duct the HHO cell output into the treated air right before the
intake throttle/butterfly. I would set engine to 2-6 degrees after TDC.
I would use the plasma ignition system that I know how to make since
I don't know yours and I would try both polarities positive forward and
the inverse one. I would use resistorless plug with ground strap cut off.

That above is subject to change depending on what you say about
it. lol

[tutanka]

The post you quoted was simply me showing references to those that
claim that they have "nitrogen hydroxide" successful experiments are
doing a few specific things, bubbling air into the hho cell, etc...

The direction I would go was in the message before that:

1. hho cell
2. warmth (by "electrolysis" current anyway) and/or air from pcv or exhaust
like the geet
3. vacuum (which should happen through bubbler by venturi effect being
ducted into intake)
4. magnetic field
5. bubbled air (most nitrogen hydroxy pages talk about this a lot)
6. possibly koh from lye is needed as electrolyte - helps or hurts?
not sure of chemistry

-------------------------------------------------------------

That is just for the HHO cell and does not address the air.

I would do the above for the HHO cell and I would treat the air
with the AP you diagrammed, hairdryer type circuit with lights and
magnetic field.

I would duct the HHO cell output into the treated air right before the
intake throttle/butterfly. I would set engine to 2-6 degrees after TDC.
I would use the plasma ignition system that I know how to make since
I don't know yours and I would try both polarities positive forward and
the inverse one. I would use resistorless plug with ground strap cut off.

That above is subject to change depending on what you say about
it. lol

That is nitrogen hydroxide formula N(OH)2O.. My question is .. for you meyer system used also that ... or not?

[Aaron]

vs. Meyers

I think that explains Meyer's results better than big hho production.
Is that what he did? I can't say for sure.