Ionization & Water Fuel

[sebosfato]

Smart people will quietly do the experiments behind the scenes and then
may or may not post results when successful.

sincerely for me is not clear what i can read in this thread.

the document i downloaded seems more clear but i don't know if is exactly what he is doing... Or who did it...

@tutanka did you made that document with the instructions or

@aron did you made the document with the info you understood?

[Aaron]

water fuel

I wrote it based on my understanding at the time.

However, there are multiple "nitrogen hydroxide" successes that are claimed
with less details than that paper. The successes on the internet claimed
that date back over 10 years online simply discuss bubbling ambient air into
the cell and with a magnetic field at the cell, the "nitrogen hydroxide" is
formed and gets combusted with no special ignition.

There are other successes and everyone has a different view of the
chemistry. And there have been successes with different processes to
get to the same end result. And successes have been had with stock
ignition systems and off the shelf spark plugs. They may not have been
optimized with plasma ignition, etc... but the point is that it can at least
be done to prove it. And if we can have access to a superior plasma plug
that can hold up to some serious plasma bursts, then all the better.

I personally don't believe in there being only one single very specific
method to make it work for the fact that there are others that have
succeeded with different variations but they all have one thing in common,
it is the fact that they are all giving nitrogen an important role in the
process. I'm talking about non-closed loop systems that draw ambient
air in.

Most seem to be doing no ionization of air at all. It makes sense that the
ionization of air would be a superior way to go. Meyer started with no
air ionization.

I was very interested in what Alex was hinting to in H2OPower's Meyer
thread because he seemed to be hinting at some very specific things
in regards to the ionization process that hinted to something other than
simply stripping electrons from the oxygen.

I've been aware of the ionized oxygen part for 10 years when a friend
first gave me videos of Meyer back then. It partly made sense but was
also seen as an enhancement to the process and not a requirement.
However, even with just the oxygen being stripped, it still didn't add up.
Having the nitrogen ionized and playing a role as a "natural EEC" and also
bonding agent to hydrogen suddenly makes Meyer's technology make sense
and it makes no sense without the nitrogen.

How many people here have copied 100% of every one of Alex's posts
in the other thread and reviewed them? I'm not saying this because those
posts will give a sudden realization of something - there is more info about
it in this thread than anywhere that I know if. But it is a good idea.

Anyway, how many people have HHO cells already built? Thousands and
thousands of people. There are some pretty easy things that can be added
or done to see how the burn rate of the flame happens to validate if
any of it works or not. As long as the right sequence of steps are done,
the chemistry is irrelevant and someone could get it to work even if
they don't even know what nitrogen is.

[Aaron]

ammonia

said to be in Feb 2007 Patent
Ganley J, Holbrook J & McKinley D. Solid state ammonia synthesis. Oct, 2007.
Presented at the Ammonia - Sustainable Emission-Free Fuel Conference, San Francisco, CA. October 15-16, 2007.

The company that has this is not too far from me. It is called NHThree.
Their patent shows how they are producing ammonia from water, air
and electricity. Their intended use is for fertilizer applications.

That diagram you posted is more complicated than the patent diagram.

I've had both of their patents but the newer one is on the SSAS process.

You said the meeting said it wasn't self sustaining? I think that is irrelevant.
Why would they care if it is self sustaining or not? What is the context
that was used in? Obviously it will take energy but is supposed to be 1/3
more efficient and more simple as super high pressure and heat isn't
needed like the Haber-Bosch Process that is the standard way to make
ammonia.

Bottom line is that it is simply further proof that ammonia absolutely can
be made with nothing more than air, water and electricity and that is also
spelled out in some old papers and one of the oldest is the 1807 Davy
reference that doesn't discuss Ammonia, it just proved that nitrogen will
bind to electrolytic hydrogen in the presence of water when it normally
won't bind to other hydrogen.

There are some ammonia plants making it with air, water and electricity,
but they're not cost effective yet. Nitrogen is separated from air, H
is taken from water by electrolysis, etc... but the old science showed
water, ambient air even with oxygen and electricity resulted in ammonia
synthesis. The SSAS made it much more inexpensive.

This is a good article on various ammonia production methods:
Renewable Fuels: Manufacturing Ammonia from Hydropower

Everyone that is running ICE's on ammonia are using very high ammonia
content like 95% and a small percent of hydrogen and the hydrogen
is the catalyst to combust the ammonia. Then the combustion byproduct
is simply water and nitrogen.

[Rizard]

......
Anyway, how many people have HHO cells already built? Thousands and
thousands of people. There are some pretty easy things that can be added
or done to see how the burn rate of the flame happens to validate if
any of it works or not. As long as the right sequence of steps are done,
the chemistry is irrelevant and someone could get it to work even if
they don't even know what nitrogen is.

Thats right. I'm good example of one that have built a cell and pulsing circuit (based to 555 IC)... Cell it self is 250mm 7 tubes 316L Sandvic stainless with 0.3 mm gap between the pipes. I ran it for 1,5 months by the sequence that Ravi explaned (document from Panacea's website)... approx 30 full sequence. They are well coated and produce quite ok gas. I tried to build the toroid and bifilar part also, but so far the toroid supplier couldn't arrange me a right sized donut... So thats about it so far. Only thing I could give my own thing are the spacers between the pipes that I could center the tubes with small gap... I hooked a straight 12V battery to the cell and could produce that much gas that it burns in nozzle (d 0.8mm) with aprox 10 mm hot flame.

I've try to undestand this whole technic for about 6 months and there are so much all kind of info in these forums that for me, as beginner, is very hard to filter the relevant information for making working system. So the known working sequence, as you said Aaron, would be great for us who just started to realize whats going on. Some kind of .... "last known working system" thread would be needed for newbies. Who could arrange this ?

[Aaron]

adding nitrogen to cell to see if there is a difference

Rizard,

I'm interested in doing my own experiments when it warms up enough
to work in my shop.

All I can tell you is what I will do with my own cell first. Make a flame of
just HHO and then have variable control over ambient air being pumped
to the bottom of the wfc. With more ambient air, I want to see if the flame
burns slower. I'm going to try that first before trying any air ionization
and without magnets on the cell. That is all I'm interested in doing at first.

Then, I'll just move logically through the next steps, more nitrogen, add
magnets to cell, etc...

[tutanka]

Rizard,

I'm interested in doing my own experiments when it warms up enough
to work in my shop.

All I can tell you is what I will do with my own cell first. Make a flame of
just HHO and then have variable control over ambient air being pumped
to the bottom of the wfc. With more ambient air, I want to see if the flame
burns slower. I'm going to try that first before trying any air ionization
and without magnets on the cell. That is all I'm interested in doing at first.

Then, I'll just move logically through the next steps, more nitrogen, add
magnets to cell, etc...

First to start any test and spent money and time I suggest you to think better... solution is in front of your eyes and you do not see it

[Aaron]

combustion

You said before that my pdf is the formula for nitrogen hydroxide.

Then, you asked what happens to it...what are the reactions after
it is created.

In this thread, you said that HHO was only used as a catalyst.
The plasma ignition splits H2 into atomic hydrogen. That hydrogen,
when burned, is simply for causing the combustion of another molecule.

You said the exhaust is some water but mostly nitrogen.

I have only read about one molecule so far that is combustible under
different circumstances and that it can be combusted using hydrogen
as the catalyst. A small amount of hydrogen burning is used as a
catalyst for combusting this other molecule.

So IF that is the formula for "nitrogen hydroxide" and it gets compressed
and heated and then plasma ignited, the above should happen.

------------------------

Anyway, I'm thinking of possibility of pumping ionized nitrogen into wfc.
Or putting wfc output into air ionizer.

With everything I already have, it might cost me less than $20 to get
everything I need to test it.

[Rizard]

First to start any test and spent money and time I suggest you to think better... solution is in front of your eyes and you do not see it

Now Tutanka stop teasing us... give good tips and advice us fools or keep quiet. Is your system working as heating soure too? Does it burn in "open fleme"? Or do we need a sealed chamber to make process run?

[tutanka]

Now Tutanka stop teasing us... give good tips and advice us fools or keep quiet. Is your system working as heating soure too? Does it burn in "open fleme"? Or do we need a sealed chamber to make process run?

AIR IS FUNDAMENTAL COMPONENT OF SYSTEM AND ALSO OXYGEN AND NITROGEN.. H2OPOWER ASK BETTER.. GAS PROCESSOR STAGE IS VERY IMPORTANT IN THAT REACTION..

[stevie1001]

The theory is as follows:
stage 1: ionizing ambient air aka nitrogen and maybe ionizing HHO
stage 2: mix it together into a chamber
stage 3: add pressure (important)
stage 4: add electrical discharge (aka spark)

See patents of Horvarth


Steve

[Rizard]

The theory is as follows:
stage 1: ionizing ambient air aka nitrogen and maybe ionizing HHO
stage 2: mix it together into a chamber
stage 3: add pressure (important)
stage 4: add electrical discharge (aka spark)

See patents of Horvarth


Steve

The pressure is important? Do you agree Tutanka?

[tutanka]

The pressure is important? Do you agree Tutanka?

All is important..

[everwiser]

I was briefly involved in a small business venture (never delivered, partner took off with the funds, etc.) that was called the "Nanodetonator". The basic theory of it was that a special "plug" was installed in place of the regular spark plugs and that the ambient water vapor in the air provided the source of hydrogen for running the engine. They called it a type of small scale fusion (which I didn't think was correct BTW) but sounded more to me like what Meyer was working on.

Anyway, if I'm understanding tutanka, he's saying you don't have to waste time or money creating HHO because there is already H2O (except for in maybe the dryest of deserts) in the nitrogen rich air being gulped by the engine and it is broken down by the process at ignition into the HHO or equivalent; not before.

[Rizard]

Anyway, if I'm understanding tutanka, he's saying you don't have to waste time or money creating HHO because there is already H2O (except for in maybe the dryest of deserts) in the nitrogen rich air being gulped by the engine and it is broken down by the process at ignition into the HHO or equivalent; not before.

Thats a thing that I've been thinking of... when said that there is water in air... But how does it work in North. We've been witness most coldest winter for 20 years. I quess, when temperature is bellow -15 degrees (C) for 2 months, all the water in air is frozen, no much humidity at the moment. Humidifier markets will explode in near future!!

I just 10 min ago, made an experiment to add mig welder gas (that includes nitrogen) to HHO flame. I didn't make too much difference. Shielded chamber probably would do the trick, and prevent the gas mixture for escape to ambient air... Looks like big open fire is not possible with this technic. Tutanka?

[tutanka]

Thats a thing that I've been thinking of... when said that there is water in air... But how does it work in North. We've been witness most coldest winter for 20 years. I quess, when temperature is bellow -15 degrees (C) for 2 months, all the water in air is frozen, no much humidity at the moment. Humidifier markets will explode in near future!!

I just 10 min ago, made an experiment to add mig welder gas (that includes nitrogen) to HHO flame. I didn't make too much difference. Shielded chamber probably would do the trick, and prevent the gas mixture for escape to ambient air... Looks like big open fire is not possible with this technic. Tutanka?

nitrogen on flame.. what is the sense??