Ionization & Water Fuel

[sucahyo]

No way in hell was Meyer making Ammonia? He was forming and initiating an imbalance.

This is a picture from Meyer Technical Brief mentioned in my previous post as figure 2-10.

Ambient Air is the prime source of Non-Combustible Gases when the Air-Gases are exposed to and passes through an Open-Air Flame, as illustrated in Figure (2-10). The Gas Combustion Process of the Gas-Flame eliminates oxygen and burnable gas atoms from the expelling gases ... producing an endless supply of non-combustible gases.
Mixing the "processed" Air-Gases with an Hydrogen Supply Source sets up The Gas Retarding Process ... allowing the Hydrogen Gas-Mixture to be transported safely through existing Gas-Grid System.

That is not a picture of water torch so the output shouldn't be hydrogen molecule, it is stated as "Hydrogen Gas Safer than Natural Gas". It is transported with standard gas line. Oxygen is eliminated from ambient air input. It is a combination of ambient air without oxygen and Hydrogen from Hydrogen Gas Generator, which resulted in Hydrogen Gas Mixture (Burn rate co-equaling natural gas). What do you think Meyer trying to say?

What is your explanation of those Meyer writing and Meyer picture. Please answer.

[tutanka]

This is a picture from Meyer Technical Brief mentioned in my previous post as figure 2-10.





That is not a picture of water torch so the output shouldn't be hydrogen molecule, it is stated as "Hydrogen Gas Safer than Natural Gas". It is transported with standard gas line. Oxygen is eliminated from ambient air input. It is a combination of ambient air without oxygen and Hydrogen from Hydrogen Gas Generator, which resulted in Hydrogen Gas Mixture (Burn rate co-equaling natural gas). What do you think Meyer trying to say?

What is your explanation of those Meyer writing and Meyer picture. Please answer.

Delete that image.. h2opower can go in crisis if see that

[Slovenia]

Very Very Funny Phraseology

Delete that image.. h2opower can go in crisis if see that

Your phraseology was very very good. It got my day started off with a smile.

[Slovenia]

Aaron's Dare Query

ELEMENT????Who told u that? Why do u want to believe that? Let me guess? It suits your need? Dude?
Yeah ok. Shame he is not here to defend himself. All his earlier paten
ts were lies as well yeah? The guy is a bull**** artist???? AMMONIA?????are u kidding me???No way in hell was Meyer making Ammonia? He was forming and initiating an imbalance.
The patent is solid. It is not bull****. Sure.. Its 10 years old and can be modified easily thanks to HV diodes and oxygen sensors. Oooopss. I said too much.

Hi Vickers,

I'd be really interested in seeing your response to Aaron's dare. You were challenging the #1 moderator of this site.

Regards,
Slovenia









//












////[/QUOTE]

[Slovenia]

IonizationX Website

Is the info about it public?

I'm pretty sure a lot of the information you are asking about was probably posted on the IonizationX website. Meyers studies were a big part of that site.

[Slovenia]

N/A

LOL. Soon. Where r these 100 percent failures Aaron mentioned? I have never seen a 100 percent replication of this patent. I think Tutanka system is close.

Tutanka is going to market his tech, so he won't share his proprietary methods with us. If we are willing to wait, we can probably purchase his systems once they are manufactured.

[Aaron]

nh3 on demand

I'd be really interested in seeing your response to Aaron's dare. You were challenging the #1 moderator of this site.

My challenge isn't because I can do something as moderator but just to
prove a point that anyone that believes Meyer actually told the truth in
the patents has nothing to show for it. I dare any Meyer follower anywhere
to show a car size engine running on 100% water based on Meyer's
explanations in his patents. Anyone that comes forward and claims they
have results - I'll bet money they will not show it because they can't.

I'm not talking about very small motors running on 100% HHO, that is easy
to do with any cell that puts out enough, but that small motor won't
make enough electricity from a generator to keep making it's own required
HHO.

Everyone has failed, is failing and will continue to fail when going by what
Meyer says. Beating Faraday with a WFC isn't difficult. I've done it and
so have many others. Even if someone can get 500% Faraday, it is
meaningless because that still isn't enough to run an engine that will
produce enough electricity on a generator to make enough water gas to
run an engine - if using Meyer's description.

LOL. Soon. Where r these 100 percent failures Aaron mentioned? I have never seen a 100 percent replication of this patent. I think Tutanka system is close.

Vickers - it is self apparent that there is 100% failure rate for the fact that
everyone following Meyer has no car engine running on 100% water and
have not over all the years his info has been spread throughout the public
domain. You're asking where the failures are? lol, you should be asking
where the results are!

For the fact that all the members throughout every Meyer forum all over
the internet all over the world have failed to get Meyer's results speaks
for itself and may just be a slight clue as to how solid Meyer's patents are.

The only people that do have results are the ones that see Meyer's system
for what it is. I'm not talking about doing something different than Meyer,
I'm talking about doing the process of what he did. The ammonia on
demand process, at POINT OF USE, IS exactly what Meyer was doing. It
is not just a possibility, electro-chemical science REQUIRES it to be
produced when following the steps. There is no way around it.

The Meyer fans simply are apparently unable to see the obvious, which
I alluded to and it is so simple that I think some will be very embarrassed
that they ever doubted what we're discussing in this thread.

I think Sucahyo might be the first to spell it out. He is pointing right to it
in the image he posted. Just look at that and look at the hints I gave,
which are not really hints, I practically spelled it out but my jaw hit the
floor when references to oxygen being an oxidizer is pointed out to me
as a counter to it.

There are others that have succeeded in 100% water powered engines
but they are using different methods. I'm not talking about Puharich or
any others that are referred to.

This thread IS for the discussion of this method and anyone is free to
start another Meyer thread and discuss how they believe the method is
as Meyer describes. There are already multiple Meyer threads in this
forum that anyone can post their support for Meyer's words. That is what
they are there for - or to question Meyer I suppose.

But this thread, started by me, is for the NH3 on demand method, which
has a strong focus on the importance of nitrogen in the process, which
most Meyer followers want to ignore. I didn't say all of the ignore it, some
see that Meyer is saying that nitrogen slows the burn, that isn't magic or
hard to believe, but there are other purposes for the nitrogen that are
painfully obvious and that is what this thread is for.

[Aaron]

nh3 production from air, water and electricity

Here are a handful of references - some I posted before - some I haven't.
I said what some were but haven't seen that anyone actually searched them
out. They are just showing that 100+ year old science has seen nh3 creation
from low energy, relatively low temps and pressures, etc...

These are all references, which I yanked out of a very lengthy paper that
I wrote up and have decided I am not going to release anymore. Here are
some of the references, everyone is welcome to search out the truth on
their own. It is all spelled out in this thread anyway, so that paper isn't
needed. I'm deleting it because it revolved around these references and
more so everyone can explain it to themselves.

Anyway, anyone that appreciates what I'm sharing below should see that
NH3 is actually required to be produced with hho + ionization of ambient
air and then the heat/pressure in combustion chamber and with a serious
plasma ignition = results.

I hope this helps some people realize the reality of on demand nh3 from
low energy really.

---------------------

“Nascent Hydrogen. The doctrine of the nascent state has been developed, for the most part, in terms of hydrogen. Davy noticed in 1807 that electrolytic hydrogen will combine with nitrogen in the presence of water, while ordinary hydrogen will not.”

The Nascent State, J. H. Reedy and E. D. Biggers, J. Chem. Educ., 1942, 19 (9), p 403, DOI: 10.1021/ed019, p403, Publication Date: September 1942.


--------------------------------------------------------------


Below are several excerpts from a paper showing the synthesis of ammonia directly from hydrogen and nitrogen mixes with and without metal catalysts and at various voltages.

“The following is an account of experiments on the rate of production of ammonia from nitrogen and hydrogen as a function of the energy of thermions used to activate molecules and atoms.

Heidemann described the production of ammonia even at the lowest voltages, but subsequent work by Andersen and Storch and Olson did not confirm this. They detected no combination until the molecular ionization potential of N2 (circa 17 V) was reached, after which the reaction rate increased abruptly every 4-7 V. The mechanism proposed was that H2+ and N2+ appearing at 16 V and 17V respectively gave H and N atoms on collision, and that later increased combination was due to the activation of H by 4 V electrons. Later Kwei found that NH3 band spectrum was not excited in hydrogen mixtures until 23V was reached. This voltage corresponds to the second jump in Storch and Olson’s curve. In a subsequent note Olson explained the failure of Kwei to detect ammonia at 17 V by postulating that NH3+ must be present for the spectrum to appear. Thus at 17 V the reactions were considered to be N2+ + e à N’2, N’2 + N2 à N2 + 2N, the nitrogen atoms then combining with H2 or H produced by the reaction N2 + H2 à 2N + 2H; white at 23 V the voltage at which N+ begins to appear, NH3+ is obtained in the same way.

As regards dissociation at the filament, Langmuir has shown that hydrogen molecules are dissociated by tungsten at temperatures above about 1,300°.

These results demonstrate conclusively that combination to form ammonia takes place between H atoms and N2 molecules both in the presence of the nickel and platinum anodes and in the presence of 13 V electrons.

In the second case “active hydrogen,” formed by Wood’s method was mixed with ordinary nitrogen. The “active hydrogen” from the arc would, undoubtedly, contain H’ owing to the high potential employed. It is only necessary to postulate that the life of the H’ species is sufficiently large for a small amount to reach the mixing tube from the discharge to account for the production of ammonia by a reaction between H’ and N2.

The various possible mechanisms for the production of ammonia in a nitrogen hydrogen mixture by means of thermions have been investigated in detail. It is shown that synthesis can occur due to the following reaction –

N2 + H at the surface of platinum or nickel.

N2 + H’ in the bulk at 13 volts.

The following molecular species are shown to be chemically reactive –

N2+ in the bulk at 17 volts,

N+ in the bulk at 23 volts,

And possible modes of mechanisms involving N2’ and H’ are elaborated.”

The Combination of Nitrogen and Hydrogen Activated by Electrons, A. Caress and E. K. Rideal, Proc. R. Soc. Lond. A 1 August 1927 vol. 115 no. 772 684-700, DOI: 10.1098/rspa.1927.0117






----------------------------

“In mixtures of H2 with N2, evidence was obtained which indicates that the ultraviolet band of ammonia, associated with the 22.5 volt critical potential, is due to a molecule NHx, where x is probably 3, and that the Schuster band is emitted only in the presence of oxygen and is due to a molecule NxHyOz, possibly NH4OH. This band was observed only at voltages higher than the critical voltage for "active nitrogen,”

Characteristics and Spectra of Low Voltage Arcs in H2, N2 and in Mixtures of H2 with Hg and N2, C. T. Kwei, Phys. Rev., 26, 537-560 (1925), DOI: 10.1103/PhysRev.26.537


-------------------------------------------------------------


The following is yet another paper discussing the fact that nitrogen and hydrogen can be combined with electricity:

“The Mechanism of Ammonia Synthesis in Low-Voltage Arcs. The formation of ammonia from gaseous mixtures of nitrogen and hydrogen by means of slowly moving electrons was studied by Storch and Olson. They determined the rate of the reaction by pressure methods and the products of the reaction by chemical indicators. From their experiments ammonia forms where the applied potential is 17 volts, the rate of formation then remains constant until the potential reaches 23 volts, at which point an abrupt increase in ammonia synthesis occurs.

Recently Kwei published a spectroscopic study of low-voltage arcs in nitrogen-hydrogen mixtures. He detected the ammonia bands at 23 volts, thus confirming Storch and Olson’s second point…”

It should not be blatantly obvious that under various circumstances, nitrogen can easily bind to hydrogen in order to form NH3 or Ammonia, especially when the hydrogen comes from electrolysis and there is moisture present.

Stanley Meyer was producing ammonia water fuel from water, air and electricity. The nitrogen also serves another purpose other than just binding to hydrogen to form ammonia.

The Mechanism of Ammonia Synthesis in Low-Voltage Arcs, A. R. Olson, J. Am. Chem. Soc., 1926, 48 (5), pp 1298–1299, DOI: 10.1021/ja01416a501


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


In more recent times, others have been able to also achieve ammonia synthesis from nothing other than nitrogen, hydrogen and electricity. And, this process is more energy efficient and doesn’t require a high-pressure environment such as the commonly used Haber-Bosch Process.

NHThree is a company in Washington state where a process to form ammonia from air, water and electricity was developed. It is called Solid-State Ammonia Synthesis (SSAS). They have also applied for patents regarding their process: Method and Apparatus for Anhydrous Ammonia Production. WO2008/097644A1 and US2008193360A1.

Now that we understand that ammonia can indeed be produced with nothing more than air, water and electricity at low temperatures and pressures, lets look at the application as it relates to a water fueled Internal Combustion Engine (ICE).

Haber-Bosch Process

Solid-State Ammonia Synthesis, Powerpoint presentation in PDF format.

Method and Apparatus for Anhydrous Ammonia Production, WO2008/097644A1

Method and Apparatus for Anhydrous Ammonia Production, US2008193360A1


---------------------------------------------------------------


I even give you links to the abstracts... so you can go copy what you can. The full articles
are available for free around the net, some aren't - you just have to search. If anyone finds
the other free full articles, please post them if you want to return the favor.

[Slovenia]

No Offense Meant

My challenge isn't because I can do something as moderator but just to
prove a point that anyone that believes Meyer actually told the truth in
the patents has nothing to show for it. I dare any Meyer follower anywhere
to show a car size engine running on 100% water based on Meyer's
explanations in his patents. Anyone that comes forward and claims they
have results - I'll bet money they will not show it because they can't.

I'm not talking about very small motors running on 100% HHO, that is easy
to do with any cell that puts out enough, but that small motor won't
make enough electricity from a generator to keep making it's own required
HHO.

Everyone has failed, is failing and will continue to fail when going by what
Meyer says. Beating Faraday with a WFC isn't difficult. I've done it and
so have many others. Even if someone can get 500% Faraday, it is
meaningless because that still isn't enough to run an engine that will
produce enough electricity on a generator to make enough water gas to
run an engine - if using Meyer's description.

Hi Aaron,

No offense meant to you in my post. I was just letting Vickers know that he was spitting in the eye of the man. I don't think he was aware of that. I was just wondering what he would say when he was made aware of that fact.

Best Regards,
Slovenia

[Aaron]

the man

There are about 5 others here that know the deal and a couple have
already had the results. One had results over 20 years ago. He/they are
"the man" - when it comes to the water fuel.

I still think Meyer's is also "the man" when it comes to this and I can see
he wasn't stupid enough to reveal his process in his patents but just cover
the claims.

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Blowing your engine

Hi All

This is just a bit of advice, If you run your engine on HHO "ONLY" you run the risk of blowing up the engine, why?, if the H is H1 "atomic" on compresson it can pass the rings and end up in the sump, and what can happen? well I will leave that up to the imagination!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike

[Slovenia]

Tesla Turbine Gas Engine

I've been thinking that the Tesla turbine gas engine would probably work out great with this setup if one was just going to be generating electricity. They are pretty much a fool proof system with very few moving parts and would be very easy to adapt to the H1 fuel. All the other necessary requirements would be easier to adapt as well.

[Slovenia]

Good Point

There are about 5 others here that know the deal and a couple have
already had the results. One had results over 20 years ago. He/they are
"the man" - when it comes to the water fuel.

I still think Meyer's is also "the man" when it comes to this and I can see
he wasn't stupid enough to reveal his process in his patents but just cover
the claims.

You make a very good point. Perhaps more of us will be able to connect all the dots soon. It needs to happen before the Cap & Trade Bill gets past and our utility bills go though the roof.

[sucahyo]

Sucaho. Regarding your question. Carbon dioxide + hydrogen = methane.

If the "Open flame assy" do not have carbon then what the result is? It is not stated that the flame need to have carbon and it is not stated that carbon is needed.

It is mentioned that this principle is implemented in WFC. Are you suggesting that you need carbon source in your WFC implementation?

But, if you insist that "Open flame assy" is alcohol flame I won't argue anymore. Since I assume it could be anything including hydrogen that do not have carbon component.

[Slovenia]

Thank You For The Favor!!!

Here are a handful of references - some I posted before - some I haven't.
I said what some were but haven't seen that anyone actually searched them
out. They are just showing that 100+ year old science has seen nh3 creation
from low energy, relatively low temps and pressures, etc...

These are all references, which I yanked out of a very lengthy paper that
I wrote up and have decided I am not going to release anymore. Here are
some of the references, everyone is welcome to search out the truth on
their own. It is all spelled out in this thread anyway, so that paper isn't
needed. I'm deleting it because it revolved around these references and
more so everyone can explain it to themselves.

Anyway, anyone that appreciates what I'm sharing below should see that
NH3 is actually required to be produced with hho + ionization of ambient
air and then the heat/pressure in combustion chamber and with a serious
plasma ignition = results.

I hope this helps some people realize the reality of on demand nh3 from
low energy really.

---------------------

“Nascent Hydrogen. The doctrine of the nascent state has been developed, for the most part, in terms of hydrogen. Davy noticed in 1807 that electrolytic hydrogen will combine with nitrogen in the presence of water, while ordinary hydrogen will not.”

The Nascent State, J. H. Reedy and E. D. Biggers, J. Chem. Educ., 1942, 19 (9), p 403, DOI: 10.1021/ed019, p403, Publication Date: September 1942.


--------------------------------------------------------------


Below are several excerpts from a paper showing the synthesis of ammonia directly from hydrogen and nitrogen mixes with and without metal catalysts and at various voltages.

“The following is an account of experiments on the rate of production of ammonia from nitrogen and hydrogen as a function of the energy of thermions used to activate molecules and atoms.

Heidemann described the production of ammonia even at the lowest voltages, but subsequent work by Andersen and Storch and Olson did not confirm this. They detected no combination until the molecular ionization potential of N2 (circa 17 V) was reached, after which the reaction rate increased abruptly every 4-7 V. The mechanism proposed was that H2+ and N2+ appearing at 16 V and 17V respectively gave H and N atoms on collision, and that later increased combination was due to the activation of H by 4 V electrons. Later Kwei found that NH3 band spectrum was not excited in hydrogen mixtures until 23V was reached. This voltage corresponds to the second jump in Storch and Olson’s curve. In a subsequent note Olson explained the failure of Kwei to detect ammonia at 17 V by postulating that NH3+ must be present for the spectrum to appear. Thus at 17 V the reactions were considered to be N2+ + e à N’2, N’2 + N2 à N2 + 2N, the nitrogen atoms then combining with H2 or H produced by the reaction N2 + H2 à 2N + 2H; white at 23 V the voltage at which N+ begins to appear, NH3+ is obtained in the same way.

As regards dissociation at the filament, Langmuir has shown that hydrogen molecules are dissociated by tungsten at temperatures above about 1,300°.

These results demonstrate conclusively that combination to form ammonia takes place between H atoms and N2 molecules both in the presence of the nickel and platinum anodes and in the presence of 13 V electrons.

In the second case “active hydrogen,” formed by Wood’s method was mixed with ordinary nitrogen. The “active hydrogen” from the arc would, undoubtedly, contain H’ owing to the high potential employed. It is only necessary to postulate that the life of the H’ species is sufficiently large for a small amount to reach the mixing tube from the discharge to account for the production of ammonia by a reaction between H’ and N2.

The various possible mechanisms for the production of ammonia in a nitrogen hydrogen mixture by means of thermions have been investigated in detail. It is shown that synthesis can occur due to the following reaction –

N2 + H at the surface of platinum or nickel.

N2 + H’ in the bulk at 13 volts.

The following molecular species are shown to be chemically reactive –

N2+ in the bulk at 17 volts,

N+ in the bulk at 23 volts,

And possible modes of mechanisms involving N2’ and H’ are elaborated.”

The Combination of Nitrogen and Hydrogen Activated by Electrons, A. Caress and E. K. Rideal, Proc. R. Soc. Lond. A 1 August 1927 vol. 115 no. 772 684-700, DOI: 10.1098/rspa.1927.0117






----------------------------

“In mixtures of H2 with N2, evidence was obtained which indicates that the ultraviolet band of ammonia, associated with the 22.5 volt critical potential, is due to a molecule NHx, where x is probably 3, and that the Schuster band is emitted only in the presence of oxygen and is due to a molecule NxHyOz, possibly NH4OH. This band was observed only at voltages higher than the critical voltage for "active nitrogen,”

Characteristics and Spectra of Low Voltage Arcs in H2, N2 and in Mixtures of H2 with Hg and N2, C. T. Kwei, Phys. Rev., 26, 537-560 (1925), DOI: 10.1103/PhysRev.26.537


-------------------------------------------------------------


The following is yet another paper discussing the fact that nitrogen and hydrogen can be combined with electricity:

“The Mechanism of Ammonia Synthesis in Low-Voltage Arcs. The formation of ammonia from gaseous mixtures of nitrogen and hydrogen by means of slowly moving electrons was studied by Storch and Olson. They determined the rate of the reaction by pressure methods and the products of the reaction by chemical indicators. From their experiments ammonia forms where the applied potential is 17 volts, the rate of formation then remains constant until the potential reaches 23 volts, at which point an abrupt increase in ammonia synthesis occurs.

Recently Kwei published a spectroscopic study of low-voltage arcs in nitrogen-hydrogen mixtures. He detected the ammonia bands at 23 volts, thus confirming Storch and Olson’s second point…”

It should not be blatantly obvious that under various circumstances, nitrogen can easily bind to hydrogen in order to form NH3 or Ammonia, especially when the hydrogen comes from electrolysis and there is moisture present.

Stanley Meyer was producing ammonia water fuel from water, air and electricity. The nitrogen also serves another purpose other than just binding to hydrogen to form ammonia.

The Mechanism of Ammonia Synthesis in Low-Voltage Arcs, A. R. Olson, J. Am. Chem. Soc., 1926, 48 (5), pp 1298–1299, DOI: 10.1021/ja01416a501


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


In more recent times, others have been able to also achieve ammonia synthesis from nothing other than nitrogen, hydrogen and electricity. And, this process is more energy efficient and doesn’t require a high-pressure environment such as the commonly used Haber-Bosch Process.

NHThree is a company in Washington state where a process to form ammonia from air, water and electricity was developed. It is called Solid-State Ammonia Synthesis (SSAS). They have also applied for patents regarding their process: Method and Apparatus for Anhydrous Ammonia Production. WO2008/097644A1 and US2008193360A1.

Now that we understand that ammonia can indeed be produced with nothing more than air, water and electricity at low temperatures and pressures, lets look at the application as it relates to a water fueled Internal Combustion Engine (ICE).

Haber-Bosch Process

Solid-State Ammonia Synthesis, Powerpoint presentation in PDF format.

Method and Apparatus for Anhydrous Ammonia Production, WO2008/097644A1

Method and Apparatus for Anhydrous Ammonia Production, US2008193360A1


---------------------------------------------------------------


I even give you links to the abstracts... so you can go copy what you can. The full articles
are available for free around the net, some aren't - you just have to search. If anyone finds
the other free full articles, please post them if you want to return the favor.

Aaron,

You are very much appreciated. Thanks for sharing with us. You have put a lot of time and effort into this.

Best Regards,
Slovenia