Stanley Meyer tec devices test and debugging suite

[Tecstatic]

Post moved to #3

[bussi04]

Stanley Meyer tec devices test and debugging suite

Stanley Meyer tec devices test and debugging suite

Stanley Meyer has developed many interesting technical devices.

Thanks to h20power in his thread http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...explained.html many of those devices and their functionality are described in detail for any participant wanting to replicate them.

Doing a successful replication can be called a Project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia because of it´s technological complexity.

Now that the project has proceeded it´s time for a spin off thread where functionality of Stan Meyer parts and the whole Stan Meyer technology system is tested and debugged. A project like this with distributed resources has challenges of it´s own and needs corresponding solution approach.

Normally a project has project members or at least virtual workgroups - people well knowing how to work together. Here in the "global village" of the forum people from different sites and with different skills come together to reach energy independance as a common goal.

For that at a minimum we have to apply disciplined and rigid methods for description and communication purposes.

"Howto" is an important keyword throughout the whole thread.

Testing and debugging progress, problem analysis, diagnostic procedures and results shall be posted here.

So the original thread can stay focussed on the scientific part while this thread fits to the technological application layer.

to all participants

bussi04

@all

The first part I want to start with is the freedom circuit - the universal electronic control of Stan Meyer´s devices. Stan Meyer has published schemes of the control circuits without device names and values and others in 2007 have decoded those devices and values.

But it´s another step to get it built and really run!

to be continued ...

bussi04

test status freedom circuit rev 0.5

At the moment I´m testing the phase lock loop functionality of the 4046 oscillator in combination with the 4066 analog switches. Up yet it´s not working so I have to put some more investigation into the operation. 2 errors found according to the 4066 (please look at the error list http://www.energeticforum.com/77295-post1356.html .
... to be continued ...

greetings,
bussi04
---------------------
bussi04@hotmail.com

[Tecstatic]

Hi bussi

The link you gave does not work, so I'm not sure where I find your error list. I will take a look, maybe I can be lucky to spot the error from the diagram.

Eric

-------------------------------- Post added below to restore order in this moved sequence of posts.

Now that I have integrated TC4429 switching works extremely well up to the freedom circuit´s maximum oscillation frequency of 285 kHz for an ohmic 10 ohms resistance switched. That´s phenomenal. A real power chip in connection with the the Power Mosfet used.

Selecting the right components is half the work done (at least)

So now we have a circuit with switching and linear voltage regulation features so that driving the VIC should work. The voltage regulation using OpAmp U16 doesn´t work up to now. I´ll see if I can get it run. Don´t forget: the main feature of the U16 queue is a frequency to analog voltage shift from point J to the darlington. If I don´t get it run there should be an easy workaround for frequency to voltage shift.
The frequency generation has a wide frequency range and gets gated by U5.

The only thing that hasn´t been tested up now is the phase lock loop functionality. I can´t test that at the moment. So the oscillator of the 4046 is running free.

greetings,
bussi04

You probably have an ordinary transformer, e.g. 240V to 24V.

Measure the self inductance of the primary and calculate the value of a capacitor to add parallel to the primary (220V) to get a resonance frequency in the desired range.

Now connect the VIC driver to the "secondary" 24V winding.

If the transformer has an extra low voltage winding use that for the feedback, else use a high resistance voltage divider from the 220V winding for the feedback.

You can connect the two wires two ways, only one way is correct so the circuit converges on the resonance frequency.

Very good progress so far

Eric

[bussi04]

Hi bussi

The link you gave does not work, so I'm not sure where I find your error list. I will take a look, maybe I'm can be lucky to spot the error from the diagram.

Eric

now the link to the error list works fine. thanx tecstatic.

[bussi04]

thank you tecstatic for giving me a hand.

as far as I can understand the oscillating circuit:

the problem with the pll is that the 4046 is oscillating at a certain center frequency. as long as there is no resonance condition the center frequency shall be varied by a triangular voltage produced by U3 (resonance seek). as soon as there is resonance detected by U2/U4 the momentaneous triangular voltage level is switched off at pin 9 of U4 and the signal from pin 13 of U4 is switched on to pin 9 of U4. the switching condition is determined by C11 (frequency dependent voltage integration). the signal from pin 13 is voltage integrated by C10 and shall get the same voltage as the voltage condition of the triangular wave shifting the oscillation frequency of U4 at the moment of resonant condition. so there are some device value dependent dynamics and also the feedback signal of U2A is not rectangular so that the whole timing doesn´t work up yet.

some more fine tuning seems to be necessary.

greetings,
bussi04

[Tecstatic]

thank you tecstatic for giving me a hand.

as far as I can understand the oscillating circuit:

the problem with the pll is that the 4046 is oscillating at a certain center frequency. as long as there is no resonance condition the center frequency shall be varied by a triangular voltage produced by U3 (resonance seek). as soon as there is resonance detected by U2/U4 the momentaneous triangular voltage level is switched off at pin 9 of U4 and the signal from pin 13 of U4 is switched on to pin 9 of U4. the switching condition is determined by C11 (frequency dependent voltage integration). the signal from pin 13 is voltage integrated by C10 and shall get the same voltage as the voltage condition of the triangular wave shifting the oscillation frequency of U4 at the moment of resonant condition. so there are some device value dependent dynamics and also the feedback signal of U2A is not rectangular so that the whole timing doesn't work up yet.

some more fine tuning seems to be necessary.

greetings,
bussi04

Hi bussi,

I just reviewed the 4046 part of the circuit, I see two errors:

error #1. You only need U4 pin 1 to detect the "lock" state, and the signal on U4 pin 2 is not a logic signal.

Break the connection between U4 pin 2 and U7 pin 1, break the connection near U4 pin 2.
Connect U7 pin1 to U7 pin 2.


error #2. If there can occur some switch noise between using U6A to using U6B when entering the lock position, then the lock may disappear so the switch U6A is active again, If the scanning frequency has then passed by the lock range of the 4046 then it will not lock, as there is no frequency scan restart.

Maybe the scan is so slow that the frequency is in the lock range, but the switch noise still happens, so it goes in and out of lock until the scanning frequency is outside the lock range.

This #2 is a design error, but it does not mean it happens, delays or other properties may prevent that.

But a more correct solution is to start a rescan if the lock is lost, and use a D flip-flop to remember the lock state, so the possible switch noise are countered.

Another option is to disconnect U6B from the circuit, and then connect the track previously to U6 pin 3 to U6 pin 1 instead. Then you have reduced the switch noise a lot.

You can also connect a LED in series with a 10kohm resistor between U8 pin 3 and GND, so the led lights to indicate the lock state. As the eye is very sensitive to sort pulses you get a better chance of seeing what happens.

If you also add a diode, a resistor and a capacitor extra to stretch the pulse, then you can see even the shortest pulses.

But..

Start correcting error#1 and see what happens...

I just realized that the diode D5 solution is a bad design, but let it be until we have seen how the first medicine works.

------------------------

Last update.

I'm getting visitors, so I'm out of time but.

It is perfectly OK to operate the 4066 at 12V it actually works better at 12V.
But I see the 12V is not regulated or filtered, maybe it is better to deliver 9 volt to the logic or all if all ICs can operate at 9V.

It is not OK to supply 12V to the 4046 and let it deliver logic signals to other 40XX ICs operated at 5 V, at least not without a level conversion (can be a resistor and a 5V zener).

Good luck bussi


@H20power,
You have a PM, please answer in a few hours, else it is irrelevant.

Eric

[bussi04]

Selecting the right components is half the work done (at least)



You probably have an ordinary transformer, e.g. 240V to 24V.

Measure the self inductance of the primary and calculate the value of a capacitor to add parallel to the primary (220V) to get a resonance frequency in the desired range.

Now connect the VIC driver to the "secondary" 24V winding.

If the transformer has an extra low voltage winding use that for the feedback, else use a high resistance voltage divider from the 220V winding for the feedback.

You can connect the two wires two ways, only one way is correct so the circuit converges on the resonance frequency.

Very good progress so far

Eric

Hi tecstatic,

I have to test functionality step by step.

little bit success:
There was significant change in dynamics by switching off pin 2 of U4. Thanks.

but at first I must get the resonant frequency of the tank circuit.
1st problem:
I have a torodial transformer, 120 VA, primary 1 x 240V, secondary 2 x 12V.
measuring the inductance of the primary using a PeakTech 2165 gives 1,260 H at 1 khz measuring frequency, 4,69H at 120 hz measuring frequency. that´s bad difference! in parallel I use a capacitor 1 nF and second choice 100 nF.
2nd problem:
I use an old sinus oscillator from 3 hz to 100 khz at 600 ohms. Injecting sinus voltage at one of the secondaries and measuring the amp flow with an oscilloscope shows that the amp flow is nearly constant over the whole frequency range but injection voltage decreases as frequency increases.

so I can´t get the resonance frequency by this way. do you have an alternative idea?
---------------------------
once I´m certain according to the resonance frequency I´ll inject a manually adjustable constant voltage to pin 2 of U6A and trim the 4066 to the resonant frequency using SW1 and RV2 (and maybe C12). then I change the voltage at pin 2 of U6A and try to get the lock in / unlock done.
---------------------------
At the moment there is constant low signal at pin 13 of U4.
do you know how the second secondary voltage / amp flow(?) changes as soon as there is a resonant condition?

greetings,
bussi04

[bussi04]

resonance determination of tank circuit

@tecstatic

some more tools I can use are:
- power supply at defined frequency 50/60 hz
- inductance cascade box from 1µH to 10H

if necessary I can organize a capacitance cascade box.

greetings,
bussi04

[bussi04]

Hi tecstatic,

I have to test functionality step by step.

little bit success:
There was significant change in dynamics by switching off pin 2 of U4. Thanks.

but at first I must get the resonant frequency of the tank circuit.
1st problem:
I have a torodial transformer, 120 VA, primary 1 x 240V, secondary 2 x 12V.
measuring the inductance of the primary using a PeakTech 2165 gives 1,260 H at 1 khz measuring frequency, 4,69H at 120 hz measuring frequency. that´s bad difference! in parallel I use a capacitor 1 nF and second choice 100 nF.
2nd problem:
I use an old sinus oscillator from 3 hz to 100 khz at 600 ohms. Injecting sinus voltage at one of the secondaries and measuring the amp flow with an oscilloscope shows that the amp flow is nearly constant over the whole frequency range but injection voltage decreases as frequency increases.

so I can´t get the resonance frequency by this way. do you have an alternative idea?
---------------------------
once I´m certain according to the resonance frequency I´ll inject a manually adjustable constant voltage to pin 2 of U6A and trim the 4066 to the resonant frequency using SW1 and RV2 (and maybe C12). then I change the voltage at pin 2 of U6A and try to get the lock in / unlock done.
---------------------------
At the moment there is constant low signal at pin 13 of U4.
do you know how the second secondary voltage / amp flow(?) changes as soon as there is a resonant condition?

greetings,
bussi04

@tecstatic
now I have a small print transformer 3,2 VA, 2 x sec 15V, 1 x prim 240V 13,8/15,4H.
combined in paralleel with 1 nF at primary there is resonance (low amp flow) at 950 hz.
next step ...

greetings,
bussi04

[tutanka]

ONLY FOR INFORMATION TO THE USERS...

In other closed forum (i DON'T KNOW WHY) I have found that reply on EEC from HUGTUG USER:


"h2opower doesn't understand basic electronics and for whatever reason Stan Meyer didn't either. Or he understood electronics partially but not fully. I have some faith Stan actually had a working device, similar to how an Atheist still has some faith that there is a almighty personal God.. but almost zero percent.

Electrons are not consumed in a light bulb in the electron extraction circuit. Electrons hit the light bulb and slow down like how they hit a resistor. The electrons are not burnt off or extracted in the lightbulb.

Stan either purposely lied about the electrons being "consumed", or he didn't understand what was going on, or he found a way to get the electrons placed elsewhere (in earth ground, or in the engine metal). They are not burnt off by a light bulb as we would burn wood in a fire.

If people understood basic electronics it would help a lot.

I don't even have electronics education myself, and it was still easy for me to find out that light bulbs do not burn off electrons."

I FULLY AGREE WITH THIS USER.. in fact destroy or consume electrons isn't possible and I think is a fake created from Stan Meyer for copiers, exist other simple method for separate or not riassociate electrons to the atoms nucleo. If you are focalized on MEYER EEC you lost only some time and moneys

[Tecstatic]

@tecstatic
now I have a small print transformer 3,2 VA, 2 x sec 15V, 1 x prim 240V 13,8/15,4H.
combined in paralleel with 1 nF at primary there is resonance (low amp flow) at 950 hz.
next step ...

greetings,
bussi04

Hi Bussi,

Sorry I could not help you earlier today, and I don't have much time now either.

In my mind I exchanged the U4 and U6 when looking at the layout, so my remarks about logic levels was wrong. you were right to put U6 on the 5V supply, so all logic ICs have the same supply voltage

The small transformer is the right choice, that was what I had in mind, not a big 120W.

So now you have your tank circuit, but the resonance is a factor approx. 40 below what your circuit is intended for.

So while testing the circuit, you have to change the averaging time constant of the filter( (R12+R13)*C10.

Assuming C10 has been dimensioned correctly for 40kHz, change C10 temporarily to 470nF while testing at ~1 KHz. Else you may see instability.

Have you put a "phase locked" LED on ? If yes, has it been lit while you operate the circuit.

The resonance should result in a phase shift around the resonance frequency.
That is what the 4046 monitor.

You can try driving the transformer with your sinus generator. At resonance the secondary voltage increases (and the circulating current), how much depends on the Q factor of the tank circuit.

Below resonance expect C10 voltage to be high, above resonance C10 voltage should be low, slightly varying the frequency around the resonance you should see a shift between the levels.

As this in the end is (should be) a well functional and stable closed loop regulating system locking into resonance, the component values are essential.

The data sheet for the 4046 must be studied, so the right values can be used.

I post this for now to get you started, and return when I have an idea of the component values.

Ps. I got a little confused until I recognized the names on the diagram symbol of the 4046 pins 3 and 14 has been swapped.

As I have never used the 4046 myself, I have to study this more, to be confident with the component value setup setup.

I am much occupied the next 18 hours, maybe I can get some spare time, no promise.

Eric

[Tecstatic]

Clarification

Hi bussi,

Reading my own post once more, I think a clarification is needed.

When you have closed loop regulation that does not work, it can be hard to see what is wrong, as it bites it own tail.

The solution for testing is to temporarily open the loop and test the behavior.

You do that by letting the signal generator be driving the transformer, not your board used to drive as in the final circuit, while the 4046 still looks at the feedback from the resonance winding.

Then you can see if the C10 voltage behaves as it must do, If C10 voltages behaves, then the oscillation frequency behaves (if 4046 IC is not broken).

If it still does not work, the lock range could be wrong.

If you have a closed loop, and the loop gain is too high, then it will oscillate (FM modulation) which we don't want here.

This gain is controlled by the resistance to connected to U4 pin 12, the less ohms, the less gain.

The next thing is the phase margin (regulation system term) in the loop, if the phase margin is too small (less than 35 degrees) stability is problematic (FM modulation).

So check out the data sheet once more, else we take that tomorrow.

One thing more. The component value of C12 is not accepted by the 4046, according to the data sheet it must be 100pF at 5V supply. On your diagram it is 10nF.

Good luck with the test.

Eric

[bussi04]

Hi Bussi,

Sorry I could not help you earlier today, and I don't have much time now either.
...
I am much occupied the next 18 hours, maybe I can get some spare time, no promise.

Eric

Hi Eric,
I´m mobile until tuesday morning so that I can do theoretical work (datasheet etc.) but unfortunately no practical tests.
greetings,
bussi04

[bussi04]

pll redesign CD4046

Hi Eric,
I´m mobile until tuesday morning so that I can do theoretical work (datasheet etc.) but unfortunately no practical tests.
greetings,
bussi04

@tecstatic
hi eric,
analyzing the cd4046 circuit connection my intermediate result is that this
U4 circuit part might be a hoax.
reasons:
- both phase comparators are used sharing only one low pass filter, that can´t work using the same values I think
- the real lock indicator pin 15 of U4 is unused

to get it working I think I have to get away from the wirering in freedom circuit pcb rev 0.5 and set it up on a lab pin board. I want to keep experimenting simple. I hope to get a better understanding by reading the book from roland best "phase locked loops" that I´ll get the next days. I´ll assemble the most simple pll circuit using my tank transformer, the OpAmp and a CD4046. Assuming that the gated VIC driver signals will be 50% duty cycle I´ll start using comparator 1.
When operating fine I´ll reintegrate the CD4046 into freedom pcb.
I´ll publish each simplified pin board design here so that you can follow and please supervise my steps.

greetings,
bussi04

[Tecstatic]

@tecstatic
hi eric,
analyzing the cd4046 circuit connection my intermediate result is that this
U4 circuit part might be a hoax.
reasons:
- both phase comparators are used sharing only one low pass filter, that can´t work using the same values I think
- the real lock indicator pin 15 of U4 is unused

to get it working I think I have to get away from the wirering in freedom circuit pcb rev 0.5 and set it up on a lab pin board. I want to keep experimenting simple. I hope to get a better understanding by reading the book from roland best "phase locked loops" that I´ll get the next days. I´ll assemble the most simple pll circuit using my tank transformer, the OpAmp and a CD4046. Assuming that the gated VIC driver signals will be 50% duty cycle I´ll start using comparator 1.
When operating fine I´ll reintegrate the CD4046 into freedom pcb.
I´ll publish each simplified pin board design here so that you can follow and please supervise my steps.

greetings,
bussi04

Hi bussi,

I disagree on the hoax. IMO the 4046 should be able to do what we want.

As said before I have not used the 4046 myself, but according to the data sheet, the two phase comparators shares the two inputs, but offers different functionality, and only one output is used at a time for feedback to the filter.

For the SM application I think comparator #1 is the right choice (its the one we use).

We just use the output of #2 (pin14) to get an indication of "lock".

Pin 15 is a zener diode which can be used for voltage stabilization.

I think the circuit must be calculated to correct center frequency, thats the frequency from the VCO on pin 4, when the input on pin 9 is at VCC/2 (2.5V).

This center frequency must be the same as your resonant frequency in your tank circuit.

Do you have a 4046 data sheet with the formulas ?

I have an old RCA data book, besides the data sheet, there is an application note named:

"ICAN-6101" which tells what is needed to know. This is with very small types on paper.
So it will not be that easy for me to digitize.

I have seen it some places on the net. It is irritating, that data once free are then getting closed source.

Maybe some of you can get it. I don't use google. When I surf encrypted, so google can collect no data about me (I guess), goggle won't let me search. To me that indicates a bad attitude (or maybe google being a part of Echelon activity) .

Bussi, in your place I would give the PCB a chance with calculated component values.

Eric