Basic Electrolysis

[witsend]

Farrah, Here's that closed battery circuit I proposed. It's quite a brain teaser. I'm assuming that the lead acid will recharge the alkaline and vice versa. Therefore - during each switching process - under open circuit conditions the path flow would offer some form of closed circuit condition and therefore would always recharge each other in the process of their discharge. And yet allow a current flow? Can't quite work it out and it gets quite complex. Anyway. Just an idea. Just utterly intrigued with the 'closed circuit' proposal you made.

Actually I think I need to add two more switches at the negative rail of both batteries to get this effect. it's a work in progress. LOL

[Farrah Day]

Hi Rosemary

This reminds me of the bendini stuff (which I might add I've never properly researched and so not in a position to make valid comments on).

The problem I see with this kind of circuit is that there will always be losses due to heat. Chemical reactions obviously require energy, and even if we consider endothermic and exothermic reactions balancing, the internal resistances of the cct (however small) will ultimately be a drain on efficiency.

I'll start a new thread for my closed loop electrolyser discussion - not quite prepared yet.

Farrah

[stevie1001]

Farrah and co readers/posters,

We talked about electrons on the outside of the electrode passing the current thru the electrode to the ions of the water.

The electrons are there because of the system we use to get current into the wfc.

Can i assume that it is the amount of electrons that set the electrolysis proces from the outside in motion?
If so, could it be possible to use a Van der Graaf generator or ionized negative air to pump electrons towards the electrode and having electrolysis as result?

Stevie

[Harvey]

Interesting idea Harvey, but with a single electrode surely we do not have a complete cct, so how will current flow through the system?

Ah, you have grasped it!

We do have current flowing, because the electrons must leave the electrode on the negative cycle and return to the electrode on the positive cycle. But remember, the definition of work is an applied force over a distance. In this system we reduce the distance of charge movement to nanometers and therefore the 'work' is reduced to a minuscule value. This makes the 'Power' part of our equation 'apparent power' or very close to that. So, for very little energy expense, we get H2O decomposition which represents a large energy storage.

Imagine a length of pipe that extends into tank full of water. On the end of that pipe we have a balloon securely attached to the end, so water (current) cannot flow through the pipe. The pipe is full of water and marbles at the exact same 'pressure' as our tank. Now we force a bunch of marbles into the pipe which increases the pressure of the water in the pipe and we watch the balloon expand into tank. Then we remove some marbles and thus the pressure and we watch the balloon contract back to a relaxed state. Then we apply a suction, a negative pressure to the pipe and we watch the balloon get sucked into the pipe. So we repeat this process rapidly and we observe motion in the tank, waves from the balloon expanding and contracting - but there is no current flow. More precisely, there is no direct current flow. But inside the pipe, and by extension, on the other side of the balloon membrane, we do have movement of water. And this is what we would call alternating current.

So lets tie the analogy together. The pipe is a conductor (wire), the balloon is a capacitor, the pressure differentials are voltage, and the volume of water that fills the balloon is charge. How much water we move in a certain period of time is the current.

So now you have an illustration for a radio antenna. The waves in the tank are the EM radiation leaving the antenna. The water in our tank (and our wire and capacitor), is space-time. The marbles are atomic particles, electrons or protons or whatever you prefer. Notice that the tank does not have many of these particles if any.

So in our electrolysis device we have a pipe with holes in it just big enough for our marbles to slip out and no balloon. And instead of only space-time, we have a solution that is intermixed with stuff that loves marbles and stuff that doesn't. So the marbles slip out, the solution absorbs them and changes into a solution mixed with molecules that don't care about marbles (but it does care about holes to put them in - if the suction is great enough they will stick their marble in there) and mixed with molecules that have extra marbles to give up. So, when we put the suction on the pipe, those latter molecules give up their marbles (which is something I think my brain has done with my mem . . . I forgot) and the pipe cycle is complete.

is that confusing or what?

[Harvey]

Farrah and co readers/posters,

We talked about electrons on the outside of the electrode passing the current thru the electrode to the ions of the water.

The electrons are there because of the system we use to get current into the wfc.

Can i assume that it is the amount of electrons that set the electrolysis proces from the outside in motion?
If so, could it be possible to use a Van der Graaf generator or ionized negative air to pump electrons towards the electrode and having electrolysis as result?

Stevie

Yes - I would say so. Therefore if you had two, one charged to + and one charged to - and you alternately attached your electrode to each, you should get a complete electrolysis cycle. If we have correctly identified the necessary process for electrolysis as charge exchange.

[Harvey]

I think magnet should be perpendicular with current flow. This patent show it being perpendicular with current flow and fluid flow.
Patent DE841613C : "Verfahren zum Erzeugen elektrischer Spannungen und Stroeme mittels Hindurchbewegens eines Leiters durch ein Magnetfeld"

I can't read german so it can be either tapping or ionizing:

It says: "Method for generating electrical voltages and currents move through a conductor by means of a magnetic field"

I would agree that the magnetic field needs to be perpendicular to the flow of current. I also agree that the permeability of the electromagnetic particles themselves interact with the magnetostatic field and can be thought of as magnetic current flow.

[Harvey]

Looking at the diagram of the two batteries up there, I would guess that eventually both batteries would settle to about 5.85V (using a conventional load bearing battery tester) because I would anticipate at least a 0.3 V loss to heat. Someone should try the experiment and see.

[Farrah Day]

Hi Stevie

Can i assume that it is the amount of electrons that set the electrolysis proces from the outside in motion?
If so, could it be possible to use a Van der Graaf generator or ionized negative air to pump electrons towards the electrode and having electrolysis as result?

Any dc voltage source put across the electrolyser could work. We know that to initiate electrolysis we only have to exceed the electrode potential of around 1.2 - 1.5 volts (depending on purity of water being used).

Once we set our voltage across our electrolyser cell, we initiate a current flow governed by Ohm's Law. The amount of gas evolved being governed by Faraday's Laws of Electrolysis. And of course we need the current to flow through the electrolyser for it to be effective in gas production.

Harvey

Ah, you have grasped it!

We do have current flowing, because the electrons must leave the electrode on the negative cycle and return to the electrode on the positive cycle. But remember, the definition of work is an applied force over a distance. In this system we reduce the distance of charge movement to nanometers and therefore the 'work' is reduced to a minuscule value. This makes the 'Power' part of our equation 'apparent power' or very close to that. So, for very little energy expense, we get H2O decomposition which represents a large energy storage.

I have tried something similar to this and it didn't work. I guess I was thinking along the same lines at the time, but no noticeable reaction seems to take place.


It's all very well having a single electrode in the water offering electrons, but there is very little to encourage them to move from the electrode. Furthermore I believe there is a natural tendency of the liquid medium to always strive to maintain a neutral balance. So it does not like giving up charges unless, at the same time it is receiving them to maintain parity.

If this worked you could easily end up with highly charged water, I never managed to achieve this.

I saw with interest Doc Stiffler apparently dissociating water with a single electrode, but there are obviously elements of what he is experimenting with that may well come into play. The fact is that water is never quite neutral, so it may be that a single electrode will work to a tiny extent, but it'll take you a few years to produce enough gas to blow you're hat off! And that of course is assuming you're getting H2.

Good stuff though.

Farrah

PS. If you haven't seen this, it's a good MIT video demonstration related to charges. Fascinating in fact, providing yet more food for thought:

YouTube - MIT Physics Demo -- Dissectible Capacitor

[Harvey]

I have tried something similar to this and it didn't work. I guess I was thinking along the same lines at the time, but no noticeable reaction seems to take place.

I would be interested in knowing the specifics of your similar experiment. Perhaps I could see what is preventing it from working in your case if I had all the details.

We have already established in this thread that water is made up of molecules that are either positively or negatively charged. Only groups of molecules result in a true neutral balance. This is one reason it is liquid at room temperature as the molecules are in continuous motion to reach that balance.

Therefore, when the electrode is active as a cathode, it must repel those molecules of like charge and attract those of opposite charge. When those of opposite charge come in contact with the electrode, the charge exchange must occur. It is no different than mixing acid and base.

Likewise the same must be true when it is operating as an anode.

If this device does not work as expected, then electrolysis is not a simple exchange of charges and there would need to be more involved to precipitate the action - something not discussed yet?

[Farrah Day]

Harvey

We have already established in this thread that water is made up of molecules that are either positively or negatively charged. Only groups of molecules result in a true neutral balance.

Not sure what you mean by this... when did we establish this?

The water molecule has a neutral charge. It will align itself within an electric field due the more electropositive effect of the oxygen atom and the shape of the water molecule, but that's all. The majority of water is quite neutral.

Unless we make it happen, the only ions in the water are due to self-ionisation - and at any given time it's only a very small percentage of the total water molecules.

Farrah

[witsend]

Farrah - Just a quick question. With an electrolyte mix with a dearth of electrons? An alkaline solution. Do we still work with some kind of surplus of electrons at the annode?

[Farrah Day]

Not sure what you mean Rosemary.

If we add and electrolyte such as sodium sulphate (Na2SO4) to water, most of it ionises into 2Na+ and SO4--, so there is no dearth of electrons as such, but there is a dearth of ions. The sulphate ion has taken two electrons from each of the sodium atoms.

The thing about this electrolyte (and many others) is that it does not react at the electrodes, so these ions seem to be inert in the water. Though I do sometimes wonder if they are taking part in some reaction that that has not yet been discovered or determined. However, it does seem that the concentration of these ions is always maintained, so clearly they remain in the solution.

So extra ions, but no electron surplus as such.

It is thought that these 'inert' ions serve only one purpose, and that is to diffuse the resulting OH- and hydronium ions from their respective electrodes in order to maintain electrolysis. But personally I struggle to understand how and why these inert ions don't themselves cloud the electrodes and halt the process.

As much as I understand about electrolysis, much of it still does not sit quite right with me, and I can't help but feel there may well be more going on than we know of.

Hope I answered your question there somewhere.

Farrah

[witsend]

Not sure what you mean Rosemary.

If we add and electrolyte such as sodium sulphate (Na2SO4) to water, most of it ionises into 2Na+ and SO4--, so there is no dearth of electrons as such, but there is a dearth of ions. The sulphate ion has taken two electrons from each of the sodium atoms.

The thing about this electrolyte (and many others) is that it does not react at the electrodes, so these ions seem to be inert in the water. Though I do sometimes wonder if they are taking part in some reaction that that has not yet been discovered or determined. However, it does seem that the concentration of these ions is always maintained, so clearly they remain in the solution.

So extra ions, but no electron surplus as such.

It is thought that these 'inert' ions serve only one purpose, and that is to diffuse the resulting OH- and hydronium ions from their respective electrodes in order to maintain electrolysis. But personally I struggle to understand how and why these inert ions don't themselves cloud the electrodes and halt the process.

As much as I understand about electrolysis, much of it still does not sit quite right with me, and I can't help but feel there may well be more going on than we know of.

Hope I answered your question there somewhere.

Farrah

Hi Farrah. Thanks for this. I think what I'm trying to understand is the difference between an acidic and an alkaline solution. But it's another one of those questions where I really need to do some homework. I just want to get my head around how those molecules eventually resolve.

Thanks anyway.

[sucahyo]

It says: "Method for generating electrical voltages and currents move through a conductor by means of a magnetic field"

Thanks .


BTW, I think electrolysis is water dissociation, not water ionization:
Ionization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ionization is the physical process of converting an atom or molecule into an ion by adding or removing charged particles such as electrons or other ions. This is often confused with dissociation (chemistry).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_(chemistry)

Dissociation in chemistry and biochemistry is a general process in which ionic compounds (complexes, or salts) separate or split into smaller particles, ions, or radicals, usually in a reversible manner. When a Bronsted-Lowry acid is put in water, a covalent bond between an electronegative atom and a hydrogen atom is broken by heterolytic fission, which gives a proton and a negative ion. Dissociation is the opposite of association and recombination. The process is frequently confused with ionization.

[Harvey]

Thanks .


BTW, I think electrolysis is water dissociation, not water ionization:
Ionization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_(chemistry)

I agree, that the chemical reaction we call electrolysis is much more than just adding and subtracting charges.
Heterolysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Also see Homolysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia just for reference sake to free radicals)

It should be remembered that even Laboratory grade pure water will have dissolved gases in it shortly after contacting the air.

It may be thought that 100% pure H2O in a vacuum sealed Electrolysis Device would never begin the process. But as is shown elsewhere in this thread, the Molecules have an asymmetric shape that causes them to be electrically polarized. Because the field strength of a charged electrode falls off according to the inverse square rule, the molecules will first align with the electric field and then the attractive side will be closer. Thus a motive force exists to cause those 'neutral' molecules to move toward the electrode due to field differential across its dipole body. Thus they will contact the electrode and initiate ionization which leads to dissociation.