Basic Electrolysis

[Farrah Day]

Cherryman

As i was experimenting with the explosions i found out about the "sucking" effect afterwards, i decided to use that force in the same setup

After any thermal explosion in air there is always a 'sucking effect' as heated gases in the immediate vicinity quickly cool. This natural contracting of the gases creates a low pressure area, into which surrounding air will surge.

Nice annimation.

Farrah

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Farrah

Hi Farrah

This is a difficult thing to explain, but I try:-

H2 is two atoms of hydrogen
H1 is one atom of hydrogen

Under Avogado's hypothesis, two EQUAL volumes of gas, at the same temperature and pressure, contain the same number of molecules.

But, the number of molecules of H1 in 1cm3 is not the same as H2 in 1cm3 (by experiment), there are less molecules of H1, why? "my hypothesis" is that the hydrogen atom has expanded in atomic form and as so takes up more space and as so has a greater energy value than diatomic hydrogen.

So Avogados hypothesis does not hold up with the same gas when it is in atomic state, (oranges and lemons, both citric, but not the same).

Mike

[Farrah Day]

Hi Mike

Ok, firstly, with reference to Avogadro's Hypothesis, rightly or wrongly I've made an assumption that this law also applies to atomic gases, and not just molecular gases. But this may be primarily because atomic gases do not tend to exist very long in nature.

Under Avogado's hypothesis, two EQUAL volumes of gas, at the same temperature and pressure, contain the same number of molecules.

Yes, this is correct, and is irrespective of the gas.

But, the number of molecules of H1 in 1cm3 is not the same as H2 in 1cm3 (by experiment), there are less molecules of H1, why? "my hypothesis" is that the hydrogen atom has expanded in atomic form and as so takes up more space and as so has a greater energy value than diatomic hydrogen.

So Avogados hypothesis does not hold up with the same gas when it is in atomic state, (oranges and lemons, both citric, but not the same

Curious Mike, what experiment? You sometimes talk of molecules of H1 above, but I assume that's typos and you mean atoms. So how was the atomic hydrogen in this experiment prevented from forming H2 molecules?

What you are implying here, is something that there seems to be no record of, but which would surely be of consequence with the gas from a common duct electrolyser.

Obviously I have no knowledge of this experiment, so I can't make any valid comments.

But there may well be something in what you say. If, as seems to be the case, Avogadro's Hypothesis is only concerned with molecular gases, there may well be no concrete information regarding atomic gases. At least I can't find any reference to Avogadro's Hypothesis and atomic gases.

Let's face it, the fact that any large gas molecule takes up the same space as any much smaller gas molecule tends to fly in the face of logic. So to assume that an atom of gas takes up more space than a molecule of gas does not require the greatest leap of faith.

So yes, I for one am open to the possibility of Avogadro's Hypothesis only being accurate for volume comparison of either molecular gases, or atomic gases. So it likely holds true when comparing lemons to lemons, just as it does when comparing oranges to oranges. But we can't compare oranges to lemons.

Yes, certainly you're right about atomic hydrogen having more energy than the diatomic molecule. In fact I know you're right, because the formation of a molecule from two atoms is an exothermic reaction.

This very reaction forms the basis of the atomic welding torch, whereby an electric arc dissociates a stream of pressurised H2 into atoms. Enormous amounts of thermal energy is released when the atoms again recombine into H2 on the work piece.

Actually, after considering it, it would then logically follow that an atom, being more energetic than a molecule, would indeed take up more space.

Very thought-provoking post.

Farrah

[eternalightwithin]

That concepts is
actually exploited in radiant containment technology by one particular
fuel additive. It drops nox emissions thru the floor on diesels, etc...

What fuel additive is that?

[Aaron]

hho properties and plasma

I might have mentioned a general lack of data on this subject, because, let's be honest there isn't exactly a truck-load of it available - and what there is is not necessarily guaranteed to be 100% reliable data. But it certainly was not me that talked about 'radiation neutralising' or any such thing!

No doubt, but what exactly? Doesn't the creation of plasma in itself require a great deal of energy. Am I right in thinking a spark is generally low current high voltage, whereas by contrast a plasma arc would be very high current?

That first sentence was a question about your post. I saw it in a later post
to Witsend. The rest of that paragraph about radiation, etc... was just a
statement of fact about the properties of the water torch flame, etc... it
actually does neutralize radiation, have massive health benefits (without
the flame, etc...). These have been known for a long time.

Plasma may take more power than a regular spark, but it isn't such a linear
thing. Plasma can transmute elements, show energy gains, which is in
more published papers than I can count and release more energy that
what is conventionally thought to be possible. Plasma can not only
ignite the mixtures, it can actually split water on contact and/or split
h2 into 2h, etc... There is evidence of negative resistance effects on
plasma circuits - even the simply ones posted here in the water sparkplug
thread.

[Aaron]

misc

With regards to water and exhausts rusting, etc, we have stainless steel exhausts on our Land Rovers that carry a lifetime guarantee, so I guess this would be the way to go.

I actually intend to use a water mist in conjunction with the hydroxy to quench the burn rate and reduce the flame temperature. I do like water. I want to exhaust all possible avenues from the original WFC before I look into any kind of gas processing.

Stainless would be my choice but stainless really means rust resistant and
not rust proof. And those land rovers are running on conventional fuel with
very little water production in the combustion as the nh3 process. Stainless
can rust under different circumstances but under normal conditions, the
stainless can last a "lifetime". I had a honda civic that I did many
experiments on - efie circuits, kiker coils, etc... non-fouler mod on
oxygen sensor, oil/fuel additives, etc...

This is no exaggeration, I went
through 5 mufflers in 9 years that I had it. 3 mufflers were the cheap
ones that only have a couple years expected lifetime anyway and 2 were
stainless - custom fit turbo muffler by a local muffler shop and one
rusted as easily as the cheap muffler and I sold it with the other stainless
and that "stainless" muffler appeared to be in good shape but the tip was
already rusting away and it was only about 1.5 years old. My engine
ran cooler than it was supposed to - was able to get 43mpg in the city
at one point, etc... the exhaust pipe after the catalytic converter was
slightly larger diameter just for a little easier breathing for better gas
mileage and the air intake had a cold air intake pipe and those were the
only mechanical changes I ever did. The engine was stock...

The only stainless muffler I had that never rusted was what was on my
car in High school in Japan. Cost a fortune - fortunately it was a gift
so I didn't pay for it. Was an HKS exhaust/muffler intended for a Toyota
Soarer (which they never brought to the states - some of the Lexus
models were actually newer soarer's they brought to the states under the
lexus name)...and it was modified to fit my 1979 Toyota Carina GT with
a 2TGEU engine. That was the best quality exhaust I ever personally had.

With total hydrogen, that is where an increased presence of water lies
gasoline/diesel/nh3 doesn't produce as much.
Whether or not it is in vapor or liquid doesn't change the fact that there
simply is more h2o present than on ammonia fuel or gasoline/diesel.
Whether or not that h2o content does present issues to an engine
is a different matter of opinion.

Normal water mist is automatic from the water cell as well as the
the water gas without needing a separate water injection system
depending on how much you want.

Personally, I've always thought it was desirable to have regular moisture
with the hho. This is what Peter and I was working on a while back. The
water moisture was from a humidifier. The humidifier takes power but
it was to prove the concept.

[Aaron]

implosion

That said, though he talks about the 'implosion' after the explosion, the one saving grace in this article for me, is the fact that, upon testing he has never achieved the predicted implosion... I wonder why?

I've seen it on a vacuum gauge that goes both ways to positive pressure
as well. There is the pressure and the vacuum and on the vacuum a tube
was connected to water container. After the explosion, the water was sucked into
the tube into the contents of the water were the gas was originally split
from.

This is along the lines of what I have on video - which is somewhere in
the archives. But shows the point.
YouTube - The Power of Oxy-Hydrogen Implosion

[witsend]

Farrah and all,

Off topic but may I say - this thread is just an absolute pleasure. To me it represents everything that is best about these forums. It is educative, tolerant, and all delivered with a high level of articulation. Needs framing. I am learning so much here about the members - their passions - and more importantly - about the subject. Very good stuff indeed. Many thanks guys - and girls. It is just so nice to see all this creative thinking.

[Aaron]

additive

What fuel additive is that?

Hi Eternal,

RXP Generation II. I no longer recommend ordering from the company.
It is too much of a hassle. The website is difficult to navigate - has
been a frustrating experience.
Aaron's Special Discount Page

It is an upgraded version of RXP Gas Kicker (Gas Kicker - Welcome to RxP Products, Inc. Home of the Little Red Bottle. The only emissions reducer that works. RxP will help you pass the smog test. Pass Smog Test Guaranteed Concentrated. Use once. Pass! 100% money back guarantee. RxP Gas Kicker w) it is used by
Burlington Northern, Alton Southern Railroad, Anheiser Busch Manufacture
Railroad, etc... the railroad companies use it pre-mixed in their diesel at the
fuel depots. Anyway, the RXP has more documentation than most other
fuel additives combined. Works on gas, diesel, propane, fuel oil, kerosene,
all jet fuel, etc...

Anyway, results with all additives will be limited by the oxygen sensor
sabotaging the increase in gas mileage so an EFIE circuit is recommended.
I think I have more info on other threads or you can pm me for more
documentation. But this additive just has more to back it than any other
that I've researched over the years.

[stevie1001]

Farrah and all,

Off topic but may I say - this thread is just an absolute pleasure. To me it represents everything that is best about these forums. It is educative, tolerant, and all delivered with a high level of articulation. Needs framing. I am learning so much here about the members - their passions - and more importantly - about the subject. Very good stuff indeed. Many thanks guys - and girls. It is just so nice to see all this creative thinking.

I agee totally...

[Farrah Day]

Hi Aaron

Plasma may take more power than a regular spark, but it isn't such a linear
thing. Plasma can transmute elements, show energy gains, which is in
more published papers than I can count and release more energy that
what is conventionally thought to be possible. Plasma can not only
ignite the mixtures, it can actually split water on contact and/or split
h2 into 2h, etc... There is evidence of negative resistance effects on
plasma circuits - even the simply ones posted here in the water sparkplug
thread.

This is what I touched on with Mike regarding the atomic welding torch. So yes, agreed, a plasma arc can dissociate molecules, like H2, which, when they combine release apparently far more energy than it took to dissociate them.

Personally, I've always thought it was desirable to have regular moisture
with the hho. This is what Peter and I was working on a while back. The
water moisture was from a humidifier. The humidifier takes power but
it was to prove the concept.

I too think this. Not only does water help reduce the thermal energy temperatures to a more manageable figure but I would assume also reduces the flame speed.

William Rhodes detailed to me in an email his concept of how he intended to improve his application of water into an ICE that required no external power. With respect to William, I can't detail it here, without before speaking to him, just in case he took it further. I would not want to unknowingly breach his trust. However, it made very good sense and would be my chosen method of adding water into the mix.

Regarding ss exhausts, I guess the quality of the ss comes into play. But we have to consider that irrespective of any water inside the hot exhaust system, the outside is continually open to the elements. So due to wet weather and rain the outside of the exhaust system is likely to react, rust or corrode as much as the inside... if not more so. And it does rain quite a lot here.

Anyway, this is something I'm not at all concerned about at this stage. If it does become an issue, I'll get over that hurdle when I come to it.

Our ss exhausts have been on our Land Rovers for 5 years now and so far, so good.

I've seen it on a vacuum gauge that goes both ways to positive pressure
as well. There is the pressure and the vacuum and on the vacuum a tube
was connected to water container. After the explosion, the water was sucked into
the tube into the contents of the water were the gas was originally split
from.

This is along the lines of what I have on video - which is somewhere in
the archives. But shows the point.
YouTube - The Power of Oxy-Hydrogen Implosion

I see the same problems with this guy's tests as Cherryman's. It is not a closed system, as he has a one-way valve that let's much of the thermal energy out of the system.

There is also other things to consider, one being the inertia of his plunger.

The second, as I pointed out to Cherryman, is that any explosion, after the initial heat produced by the thermal energy dissipates, will create a low pressure area into which surrounding air will rush. If there is no surrounding air to equalise this low pressure (perhaps because of a one-way valve), then sure there will be a partial vacuum created and what appears to be an implosion will occur.

I've long considered these things, and I'm yet to see any test or experiment that provides conclusive evidence that implosion is - or ever will be - an issue. For what it's worth, it appears that George Wiseman is also in agreement with this.

I know well that people take exception to me calling the implosion issue a myth, but for all the reasons previously stated, I really do believe it to be a non-issue with regards to an ICE. If someone can prove otherwise, I'll gladly yield.

Farrah

[Aaron]

arc

This very reaction forms the basis of the atomic welding torch, whereby an electric arc dissociates a stream of pressurised H2 into atoms. Enormous amounts of thermal energy is released when the atoms again recombine into H2 on the work piece.

Farrah,

Besides the nitrogen atom being stripped of enough electrons, the above
Langmuir science is almost spelling out another crucial part of the nh3
process.

Are you familiar with what property of the arc dissociates h2 into 2h?
Langmuir spells it out in no uncertain terms - there are two short articles
on him on the Lateral Science UK pages that are about the only thing
anyone needs for this part of the process, in my opinion.

[Aaron]

implosion , lean mixture, etc...

So yes, agreed, a plasma arc can dissociate molecules, like H2, which, when they combine release apparently far more energy than it took to dissociate them.

I would assume also reduces the flame speed.

I know well that people take exception to me calling the implosion issue a myth, but for all the reasons previously stated, I really do believe it to be a non-issue with regards to an ICE. If someone can prove otherwise, I'll gladly yield.

Farrah

On the atomic hydrogen torch, the gain upon the recombination is what
many think is the reason these torches have been "suppressed" over the
years.

The radiant containment technology of the additive causing a moisture
barrier does slow the burn to get a more complete combustion so less
emissions, more power and mileage and no carbon buildup around
the valves, rest of combustion chamber, oil lasts way longer, plugs stay
completely clean, etc...

You mentioned the wwii planes with water injection. That is true. There
are two other parts of the wwii engines that you may find interesting.
One is the fact that they moved towards lean mixtures - leaner that what
was thought to be possible. See the Charles Lindbergh story:
Charles Lindbergh and the 475th Fighter Group this is for the the p-38's
anyway and they probably did it with others.

The other is that because of the oil shortage and air, sea, land vehicles
were running on way less oil than they were supposed to. They ran just
fine and had no lubrication problems. They ran cool and even had less wear
than they normally had with full oil levels with one classified technology
that was originally developed for the oil/gas refinery industry by the oil/gas
refinery industry.

But it is a fact there is an implosion. Whether or not it is a simple shrinking of
volume or a "true implosion" is not important - a shrinking of volume is a
shrinking of volume and this is an implosion. Like I said before, the
shrinking of volume is NOT the issue. It is water formation and the form
of "hydroxy" burns way too quick and assembles too quick and never
allows for a real thermal release from the hydrogen as it could if the
ionized nitrogen was interfering with the ability for o and h to recombine.
The "implosion" just happens to be there - but that in itself is not the
actual issue. The shrinking of volume from temperature differences is
as much as a shrinking of volume by recombination. So that is probably
a real implosion in my book. The water expands to about 1600 times the
volume when in hho form and recombines, that shrinks 1600 times in
volume - that is the basic concept anyway. Do you think that the
dissipation of heat cooling the gases are going to cause a 1600 times
shrinkage?

[TheCell]

A Little something for Farrah Day

As I am new to this forum, I would like to add some testing results and information to "what is electrolysis" question. I will attempt to post some of the Photos we have taken of our cells that we produce in large quantities (3 to 4K/month)....one in particular for Farrah Day, who asked the question what would happen with a magnet incorporated into the system. The pictures will show a series cell with opposing magnets on either side and the results of running this cell for 3 months with RO water and KOH 30% by weight at 13.8 volts and 80 amps. This Cell, which is one of hundreds we take out of service to do destructive testing on, was before its disassembly, producing 7.5 LPM of HHO. This was measured at STP and an ISO calibrated flow gage produced for HHO gas. We dry all our gas measurements through a desiccant prior to measuring.

The second group of pictures are microscopic photos of the buildup of "material" on the plate. The bare side is where we encase the plate in our material for the perfect positioning and sealing.

If anyone cares to receive all of the very boring details of how we run the tests or etc I would be happy to share that data as well.

Oh, and Farrah Day, wouter still doesn't know what he is missing by your not being able to "participate". AND, I strongly agree with you on the BB evaluation you gave....You are a hard person to track down!

Hope the pictures get uploaded.

Best regards,

Bob Potchen
The Cell, Inc

[Aaron]

magnets and wfc

Bob,

For better results, I believe the magnetic field needs
to be perpendicular to the plates and not flat against them
for the purposes of increasing gas production.