Basic Electrolysis

[sucahyo]

The only stainless muffler I had that never rusted was what was on my car in High school in Japan.

My friend once also had rusted muffler problem, he solve it by making custom made muffler from brass ...

[Farrah Day]

Hi Bob

It's good to have you here.

Oh, and Farrah Day, wouter still doesn't know what he is missing by your not being able to "participate". AND, I strongly agree with you on the BB evaluation you gave....You are a hard person to track down!

Yeah, I got too frustrated and ran out of patience over there... it's my one weakness, lol. Mind you they get no traffic so it is of no real consequence.

You might have gathered I do rather have a tendency to leave a trail of destruction in my wake. In my continual search for truths and facts, I have a real gift for asking questions that seem to upset folk.

With regards to magnets, did you use Fleming-s Right-Hand rule to determine the reaction of the magnetic field with electric fields and ionic currents?

Farrah

[Cherryman]

Farrah, did you know this one?

A magnet used with electrolysis gives a strange effect:

YouTube - magnet hho

[Farrah Day]

Yes, I've seen that video before Cherryman.

It's good demonstration of the effect of magnetic fields on ionic current.

I think there is a good case for magnets improving efficiency. But they have to be used correctly.

Farrah

[Farrah Day]

Bob

Just a quickie: Have you ever done any detailed analysis of the gases resulting from your electrolysers?

Regards, Farrah

[TheCell]

Hi Farrah Day,

Yes we do. In the positioning of the magnets we have a standard magnet mounted on the assembly floor in key positions...this confirms that the magnets are placed, or so we thought until the response below, in the correct N/S orientation. Our faceplate of THE CELL has + and - orientation to confirm correct field generating. But now, with the question submitted below, we will be testing this new found theory by producing a Cell with the field perpendicular to the plate.....interesting concept. Will let this group know in 3 days...That is the current QC time for each Cell before they let me test it...

As for the ionic currents, I will "temporally" (not temporarily) claim ignorance and get back to you on that.

Bob Potchen

Hi Bob

It's good to have you here.



Yeah, I got too frustrated and ran out of patience over there... it's my one weakness, lol. Mind you they get no traffic so it is of no real consequence.

You might have gathered I do rather have a tendency to leave a trail of destruction in my wake. In my continual search for truths and facts, I have a real gift for asking questions that seem to upset folk.

With regards to magnets, did you use Fleming-s Right-Hand rule to determine the reaction of the magnetic field with electric fields and ionic currents?

Farrah

[TheCell]

Oh How I love those quickies:

Yes. The results are from the University of Madrid, ( their are 5 of them I've Been told), and the results showed a purity level of 98.8% Hydrogen in the diatomic state, and 93.2% Oxygen in the Diatomic state as well...there were some ancillary gases and compounds that amounted to about 1.8% of the total volume. I will see if I can locate the report and post it. The only problem is the BB effect. ...if you know what I mean.

Bob Potchen

Bob

Just a quickie: Have you ever done any detailed analysis of the gases resulting from your electrolysers?

Regards, Farrah

[Farrah Day]

Yeah Bob, I know what you mean.

So your results show primarily molecules of both oxygen and hydrogen. I believe this would compare to tank gases of either hydrogen or oxygen.

Interesting... the plot thickens. It seems very hard to get consistent results across the board... what are we missing?

I assume the gases were common duct. Were you using straight dc or pulsing?

William Rhodes detailed his results very well, and estimated as much as 95% could be atomic gases, but even if this particular figure is unreliable, his results seem solid enough. I recall BB claiming to have had his gases tested and found to be high in atomic species. Conversely George Wiseman appears now only to be talking about a 1 - 3% of atomic gases (which seems to fall in line with your gas analysis), but he also has theories about 'expanded water' and something called a 'magnecule'.

It's all a bit of an enigma isn't it?

There just seems to be no consistency. And of course if some of these sources are being less than forthright with the facts, then that makes it all the harder for the rest of us. Unfortunately I don't have access to a universal gas analyser.

So much time wasted just trying to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Farrah

[Michael John Nunnerley]

the plot thickens

Well that goes along with my theory, expanded atoms what do you think Farrah?

Mike

[TheCell]

Dear Farrah Day,

We will be repeating this test again in aprox 3 weeks, here in the States at a local university....in addition, we have requested the test be repeated in one of the many Universities in the UK....that should happen within the same time frame. We Must have repeatable results from MANY different sources to eliminate the Foolishness of wrong data. Most of these tests, if not all, we try not to even be present at...I don't want even the impression we influenced the results. That by the way is a very selfish direction on our part...it makes it easier to sell REAL results.

The test we ran was common duct with pulsed DC. We use a somewhat complex computer that we designed and programmed in house....by the same gentleman that invented "Superchips"....they are in the UK as well. It pulses out a single frequency in the neighborhood of 120KHZ (need to have some secrets under our skirts) and varies the output to control the amperage within .01 amps of set-point or demand load on the ICE being used on. It also controls:
1. Fluid level
2. Pump speed based on amp load (varies as needed to improve performance of the HHO output)
3. Pump confirmation pressure
4. Output volume of HHO gas
5. Final filter condition
6. Display of all output parameters via BlueTooth
7. GPS location
8. Driver Characteristics
9. ECU modification based on need/demand of engine
10. Current loop control
11. Foam detection (when the driver decides to put a beer in the tank...for real...happened twice, in separate countries)
12. Electrolyte condition based on discharge rate
13. High pressure limit primary (secondary is not related to the PCS)
14. Fluid temperature
15. Heat exchanger fan speed based on fluid temp
16. ECU shutdown sequences

And within 5 months (hopefully) GPS mapping to preset the HHO output based on "road ahead conditions"

So...on a forum like this, that still has your insight and input, and no BB...we are happy to share our data. And would love to have independent verification of EVERY bit of it from a qualified institute, not associated with us.

Cheers,

Bob Potchen

Yeah Bob, I know what you mean.

So your results show primarily molecules of both oxygen and hydrogen. I believe this would compare to tank gases of either hydrogen or oxygen.

Interesting... the plot thickens. It seems very hard to get consistent results across the board... what are we missing?

I assume the gases were common duct. Were you using straight dc or pulsing?

William Rhodes detailed his results very well, and estimated as much as 95% could be atomic gases, but even if this particular figure is unreliable, his results seem solid enough. I recall BB claiming to have had his gases tested and found to be high in atomic species. Conversely George Wiseman appears now only to be talking about a 1 - 3% of atomic gases (which seems to fall in line with your gas analysis), but he also has theories about 'expanded water' and something called a 'magnecule'.

It's all a bit of an enigma isn't it?

There just seems to be no consistency. And of course if some of these sources are being less than forthright with the facts, then that makes it all the harder for the rest of us. Unfortunately I don't have access to a universal gas analyser.

So much time wasted just trying to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Farrah

[Farrah Day]

Bob, one thing is very clear, and that is, if they are to be commercial units they have to perform consistently for prolonged periods without reliability problems.

Wow! You nicely emphasise the wide criteria that needs to be encompassed by these units and the associated electronics if they are to form the basis of a business enterprise.

Of course, myself and many others can get away with far less complex electronics and such in one-off builds. We also do not have to meet the rigid health and safety requirements of a commercial enterprise. Further, we can always improvise and modify as we go - I guess this is not an option for yourself.

From what I have read, 'The Cell' did not (or does not) perform to the efficiencies you were told it would. Is this so?

I think having someone in your position, that can relate first-hand details from many hours of practical results from a commercial design, is something of a real bonus to the forum.

I for one hope you hang around awhile.

Farrah

[TheCell]

Farrah Day,

You are correct as far as the efficiencies...we were told that if we did all of these magical things we would be in the 200 to 400% Faraday range. We have spent $100Ks simply getting the correct power supplies to confirm what the real numbers are. We keep retains from the very first production runs, including cells with BB signature as the "supposed expert". We have retested them against the cells we currently produce,...the newer Cells produce about 8% more gas than the original cells, but at no time after the new power supplies were installed and calibrated did we ever get more than 82.6% efficient, ...thats to say, if 100% efficient is 1 LPM of HHO gas at 10 amps and 12.0 volts, we used that as a basis of calculation.

And the statement by us from the so called "expert" that we were getting 120% efficiency was wrong.

I also made a statement on another forum that said we thought we had achieved resonance for a brief 10 to 14 sec time period....after further checking of the power supply system, in an attempt to repeat the event, we found a shorted out power supply that made us think we had more gas with less amps....NOT THE CASE. RESONANCE WAS NOT ACHIEVED.

We tried on one other forum to have an intelligent discussion, that was curtailed by an "expert". So, yes, we should be around here for as long as the "expert" is not involved.

I simply get tired of stupid rhetoric and "pete-re-pete" scenarios.

SOooooo, the enlightenment of quality comments and or suggestions is always welcome. If we use it and it works, we will be sure to let all here know.

As for the one offs, we have old designed cells that are new, but we can't use them due to one reason or another. They are designed for FLOW THROUGH ONLY. and in most cases 12 or 24 volts at 40 / 30 amps respectively. As long as they are not for commercial application we are willing to GIVE them away for the cost of freight to members of this forum as of this time and date....so if someone joins tomorrow....not happening.
I can send pictures as well. If you have a freight account number and want us to use it, we can do that as well. I believe we have about 800 to 1100 Cells. Just our attempt at saying Hello!

Once again, thanks for the input.


Bob Potchen

Bob, one thing is very clear, and that is, if they are to be commercial units they have to perform consistently for prolonged periods without reliability problems.

Wow! You nicely emphasise the wide criteria that needs to be encompassed by these units and the associated electronics if they are to form the basis of a business enterprise.

Of course, myself and many others can get away with far less complex electronics and such in one-off builds. We also do not have to meet the rigid health and safety requirements of a commercial enterprise. Further, we can always improvise and modify as we go - I guess this is not an option for yourself.

From what I have read, 'The Cell' did not (or does not) perform to the efficiencies you were told it would. Is this so?

I think having someone in your position, that can relate first-hand details from many hours of practical results from a commercial design, is something of a real bonus to the forum.

I for one hope you hang around awhile.

Farrah

[Aaron]

magnets

we will be testing this new found theory by producing a Cell with the field perpendicular to the plate.....interesting concept. Will let this group know in 3 days...That is the current QC time for each Cell before they let me test it...

I would love to see these results. You might find the exact opposite! lol

It's been close to 10 years but myself and I know others - a few members
of this forum - have used that geometry for increased gas production.
I also did this about 6 years ago when I built one of the xogen patents.
Was basically a 555 triggered transistor setup - an inverted circuit and this
was done on a small plate cell. I don't even have that thing anymore. But it
wasn't too long after that that I moved to concentric tubes and have been
happy with tubes ever since.

I still need to test magnets with tubes like placing a large disc magnet
flat under the base under the tubes so the field is also perpendicular to the
current moving across the gap of the tubes.

[HairBear]

Very interesting! Thank you Bob! Is there any documentation available for any of us to read?

[Aaron]

cells

I believe we have about 800 to 1100 Cells. Just our attempt at saying Hello!

Bob, do you have pics or a website showing these cells?