Basic Electrolysis

[HairBear]

This is passivization for BRUTE FORCE, i am in the wrong thread i need a hybrid TAXI LOL

Bob =Bob Boyce . I tested a cell and found Aaron/Ravz theory of more gas via that white build up was true, did you test this?

Ash

Yes, I did. But this thread may not be the best place for me to give the details of my opinions. Thank you for clarifying my question.

[sucahyo]

For a start you won't generally find atomic hydrogen or oxygen in a free mix as in these states they are unstable and more energetic than in molecular form.

This has become the source of intense debate so many times, anyone has experimental data on exactly how many seconds or microseconds a hydrogen or oxygen ion can roam free in the air before merging or stabilizing?

Without experimental data, this would keep being the source of intense debate. All I see is statement, but no experimental data, One of them mention few seconds. Just to illustrate the scale, I am imagining mars and earth as hydrogen, jupiter as oxygen, the chance of them meeting their match on another galaxy is small. Do the attraction force can pull things from another galaxy? mars pull earth in an instant but need a couple of second to pull planet at other galaxy?

[chasson321]

No, those two didn't discover anything, and call what they where doing passivation when it clearly is not. The main thing Bob, and others where doing is leaching out the metals that makes the water turn brown from the SS, not building up a coating on the metal. But Bob can speak for himself if he wants to, so you don't have just my word to go on, or you can look up passivation and learn for yourself.

Tim

Bob Boyce? I thought Aaron and Ravi discovered the passivation thing? I didn't see Bob's name anywhere in the PDF. I call passivation a perpetuated myth but Aaron and others will disagree with my opinion even though I have several hundred hours of research that shows me different. But then again are we talking normal electrolysis or something else?

The PDF is written by Dan Englebert. Who is Bob?

[HairBear]

Thank you Tim for pointing that out and thanks for making the download a second time a less painful process than the first when Ash posted it. Maybe Aaron and Ravi can speak for themselves also about why they call the coating thing passivation. I have never had problems with water turning brown from stainless steel, only contaminated water like tap water.

[HairBear]

This has become the source of intense debate so many times, anyone has experimental data on exactly how many seconds or microseconds a hydrogen or oxygen ion can roam free in the air before merging or stabilizing?

Without experimental data, this would keep being the source of intense debate. All I see is statement, but no experimental data, One of them mention few seconds. Just to illustrate the scale, I am imagining mars and earth as hydrogen, jupiter as oxygen, the chance of them meeting their match on another galaxy is small. Do the attraction force can pull things from another galaxy? mars pull earth in an instant but need a couple of second to pull planet at other galaxy?

I can measure ions at a distance of 10 feet from the source of an air ionizer with a voltage of 10Kv. I do not know the speed though and I'm assuming the ions are mostly oxygen from the smell of ozone.

[sucahyo]

I can measure ions at a distance of 10 feet from the source of an air ionizer with a voltage of 10Kv. I do not know the speed though and I'm assuming the ions are mostly oxygen from the smell of ozone.

ozone is O3, the ion already attached to the O2. That show that after 10 feet, there is still O3. Unfortunately it do not indicate ion existance at that distance.

[Farrah Day]

The passivation thing is of some interest for two main reasons:

Firstly, as stated in the link, it gets rid of any surface particles that may cause premature corrosion of the electrodes. (We have a stainless steel dogs water bowl that has a tiny point of rust just at one point, a tiny imperfection that leads to corrosion. Which goes to show that the protective chromium oxide layer can be breached even in undemanding environments).

Secondly, by virtue of preventing any corrosion it also obviously enhances the efficiency in that we are not getting unwanted reactions taking place and so sapping energy.

However, the question I've always been puzzled by is why this seems to work.

Oxide layers in general tend not to be very good conductors, but I expect that at mere microns, the oxide layers on ss and indeed aluminium are to a certain extent porous to charge exchanging. Irrelevant of their protective oxide layers, both aluminium and ss seem to conduct just fine, so I guess this must be the case.

The white layer that develops on the cathode when using tap water, I had always put down to being calcium carbonate, the same thing that gives use limescale on taps and in kettles, etc.

In fact I doped tap water with calcium carbonate and was able to build up these white layers on my ss cathodes very quickly. I was never 100% sure whether or not this actually enhanced my results, but I'm sure it went some way to stopping the leaching of iron from the ss.

Curiously, this white layer was a very good insulator. Using a multimeter, I was unable to get any resistance reading at all. Yet it did not seem to interfere with the charge exchange process at the electrodes. Again, this coating must actually be extremely porous on some microscopic level.

Ultimately, I decided that any gains in efficiency were miniscule, but that the coating might mean that the water contamination was much less of a problem, and for this reason alone made it worth pursuing.

I've attached a couple of old photos that show the build up that I achieved on the centre cathode in just a few hours with tap water doped with calcium carbonate. Though not shown, the white coating was also apparent on the -ve side of the floating plates.

Farrah

[Farrah Day]

Farrah Day - I'm still following this thread with bated breath - the more so as we're using a copper hot water cylinder in our first application. I'm inclined to think that there may well be some electrolytic effect that has not been brought into the equation.

Farrah - if I can impose on you - would the use of this material make a difference - considering we'll be applying those sharp voltage spikes to the system?

Rosie, I'm not aware of your set up, indeed I had no idea that you were fabricating anything. Can you elaborate on what you are doing?

Farrah

[HairBear]

ozone is O3, the ion already attached to the O2. That show that after 10 feet, there is still O3. Unfortunately it do not indicate ion existance at that distance.

I'm sorry, maybe I should clarify that I was using an ion detector and not my nose to measure the 10 foot distance. Most corona discharge type ionizers emit a tiny amount of ozone as a byproduct of generating high levels of negative ions. However, the ozone output is actually less than .02 parts ppm, even within an inch or so of the ion emitter.

[HairBear]

Ok, I see that Farrah has talked about the coating and so I feel I won't be intruding with off topic banter.... The coating can be substituted with a resistance as close to the cathode as possible. The resistance is used to not only control current flow but also helps with voltage drop caused by current flow. In other words, even though you may be generating 120V to the cell, measuring the cell shows maybe half of that voltage and heat is generated quite quickly. The whole bit of the coating though was purported as a Stan Meyer secret which we have found later to be false. Well, sort of... Yes, he used a resistance at the cathode but not a coating, as some have demonstrated, until the invention of the chokes after the fact.

So, Farrah, do you or anybody else still believe HHO from basic electrolysis alone can run a vehicle such as your daily transportation? Are you forgetting about the fact that the water WILL boil out before an appreciable amount of gasses can be utilized from a typical cell? Sure, you will see results from boosters and may get a motor or engine to idle but beyond that you will find the amount of gasses and the nature of the combustion does not have near the same incindiary power as gasoline vapor. Water vapor can and will alleviate that problem but only to a certain extent and you run the risk of the electrolyte running through the internals of the engine causing more problems. That is if you use any electrolyte...

[Farrah Day]

Ok, I see that Farrah has talked about the coating and so I feel I won't be intruding with off topic banter.... The coating can be substituted with a resistance as close to the cathode as possible. The resistance is used to not only control current flow but also helps with voltage drop caused by current flow. In other words, even though you may be generating 120V to the cell, measuring the cell shows maybe half of that voltage and heat is generated quite quickly.

I'm not really following your lines of reasoning here HB. Why would anyone want to put a resistance close to the cathode? All this would do is provide an additional voltage drop and hence an additional source of power wastage. What purpose could this possibly serve...?

Though insulative in nature, the coating on the cathodes is certainly porous, as if it were a complete insulator, as in a plastic coating, no charges could exchange and hence no gas would be evolved.

In my opinion, we'll never make enough on-demand gas from standard electrolysers to run an ICE in a car, given the proportional relationship of the gas evolved to the current drawn. Which is why I'm looking at alernative electrolyser concepts.

The fact that Rhode's Gas may contain extra energy in the form of atomic species, I don't personally think will be a great enough factor to change things. As it stands the best we can expect is performance boosters.

But of course this is just my opinion.

Farrah

[Michael John Nunnerley]

data

This has become the source of intense debate so many times, anyone has experimental data on exactly how many seconds or microseconds a hydrogen or oxygen ion can roam free in the air before merging or stabilizing?

Without experimental data, this would keep being the source of intense debate. All I see is statement, but no experimental data, One of them mention few seconds. Just to illustrate the scale, I am imagining mars and earth as hydrogen, jupiter as oxygen, the chance of them meeting their match on another galaxy is small. Do the attraction force can pull things from another galaxy? mars pull earth in an instant but need a couple of second to pull planet at other galaxy?

In any gas in it's atomic state, whether on its own or a mix of gas will change to another state in 0.5-5sec, the difference is depending if there is another gas and its stability in relation to the secound gas, the longer time is normally when there is only one gas, but in the case of nitrogen, it is the quickest as it is the most unstable in its atomic form and the most difficult to put into it's atomic form, so that will give you some idea.

Mike

[Michael John Nunnerley]

performance enhancer

Well Farrah, you just hit it on the head, the injection of "HHO" into an engine running on petrol, is just a performance enhancer. Extra O2 as oxidising agent and H2, as an enhancer to the petrol which is already a hydrocarbon.

Note I put HHO in inverted comas, that is important

Mike

[witsend]

Rosie, I'm not aware of your set up, indeed I had no idea that you were fabricating anything. Can you elaborate on what you are doing?

Farrah

Hi Farrah - For some reason I'm not getting email notification of posts on this thread. Does anyone else find this?

In any event, here's the link.
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post94900

You'll see the brass attachment at the top. That is an inserted cylinder - also copper - that houses the resistor. The energy will be from batteries - and switched - as we do - with the object being to return the current from the CEMF back to the batteries.

Then the cylinder itself will hold he water.

Effectively the resistor will be in oil and will be isolated from the water. But the housing of that resistor is 'close' and I'm just not sure if the copper may induce all kinds of electrolytic effects in the water. Is this likely? It's a standard type cylinder and copper is just fine for ac supply. But this isn't standard ac. Not sure if you can advise us here. If not don't worry. We'll find out in due course.

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Hi Farrah - For some reason I'm not getting email notification of posts on this thread. Does anyone else find this?

In any event, here's the link.
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post94900

You'll see the brass attachment at the top. That is an inserted cylinder - also copper - that houses the resistor. The energy will be from batteries - and switched - as we do - with the object being to return the current from the CEMF back to the batteries.

Then the cylinder itself will hold he water.

Effectively the resistor will be in oil and will be isolated from the water. But the housing of that resistor is 'close' and I'm just not sure if the copper may induce all kinds of electrolytic effects in the water. Is this likely? It's a standard type cylinder and copper is just fine for ac supply. But this isn't standard ac. Not sure if you can advise us here. If not don't worry. We'll find out in due course.

Hi Rose

If your cylinder is electrically isolated or is earthed, then you will have no problems

Mike