Basic Electrolysis

[Farrah Day]

Well thanks for that HB... did you get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning??

You seem to be a little confused here.

As already stated, the ignition coil is being used to induce ionisation by pulsing an electric field through the water. All that is important is that this electric field pulses. Any alternating field at this early stage of my testing is fine by me, but the ignition coil conveniently provides a very high voltage and hence a strong electric field.

I'm not using the ignition coil on the electrodes!!

Farrah

[witsend]

Farrah, I'm biting my tongue and really trying to hold back, but... Come on! Transformers don't output DC without a diode, even IST knows that... After countless posts of the name calling and condescending remarks to those that are not deemed "educated" in the world of Farrah Day, how could you miss such a vital yet fundamental of electrodynamics 101?

It boggles my mind how a person can build a simple 555 circuit and not understand simple transformer theory. And yet carry on in the manner that you have of an educated grandeur. You have become exactly what you have been complaining about, a clueless fool pushing assumptions and doublespeak enabling more confusion to the ignorant masses. How does it feel Farrah?

Golly Hairbear. Harsh words. Are we mere mortals not allowed an ocassional error - even if you're right? I think it will be a sad event on this forum if we are all to FIRST never be subject to error. By that standard none of us qualify. And I put it to you that the confusions - if any - related to that switch - was also something any one of us could also have seen before now? Surely? Again on the assumption that there may be a problem.

Not nice Hairbear. Not nice at all. And then you move to 'educated grandeur'? Where do you see that in the endless acknowledgements of doubt and apprehension. I wonder if you're reading the same posts? Certainly I see none of it. Rather I see a happy propensity on your part to scorn what to me is a sincere effort at working through an hypothesis. With respect, I feel that to demand standards of unending excellence, perfection, or correctness was never achieved - not by anyone - not even our greats. Somewhat daunting if that's your required benchmark. And hardly likely to encourage the questioning attitudes that need to go with the spirit of exploration that I assumed we all enjoyed.

I'm just so sorry to find you capable of this Hairbear. I must say I rather enjoyed what I thought was your general tolerance.

[Farrah Day]

Farrah, I'm biting my tongue and really trying to hold back, but... Come on! Transformers don't output DC without a diode, even IST knows that... After countless posts of the name calling and condescending remarks to those that are not deemed "educated" in the world of Farrah Day, how could you miss such a vital yet fundamental of electrodynamics 101?

It boggles my mind how a person can build a simple 555 circuit and not understand simple transformer theory. And yet carry on in the manner that you have of an educated grandeur. You have become exactly what you have been complaining about, a clueless fool pushing assumptions and doublespeak enabling more confusion to the ignorant masses. How does it feel Farrah?

Well, I wasn't going to bother defending myself, as I'm having a good day and feeling particularly tolerant... but perhaps I should.

The ignition coil is not a regular transformer, and is not being implemented as such. Its use is as a high voltage trigger, not the transformation of an AC waveform from one voltage to another as in a regular transformer. I'm not even applying AC to the coil - the 555 timer cct does not ouput AC, but squarewaves or positive DC pulses.

This is what happens:

The low voltage pulse from my 555 timer cct puts a small (12V) voltage across the primary winding of the ignition coil. When this pulse switches off, the rapid decay induces a much higher voltage inductive kick back in this primary coil. This higher voltage kick is seen by the seconday winding of the coil due to the inductive coupling, but as the secondary usually is comprised of around 100 times more windings than the primary, the voltage is hence 100 times greater.

So if the primary sees a kick of 150 Volts, then 15KV is inductively reproduced across the secondary winding.

So the secondary voltage is pulsing 15KV, but it is not sinosoidal and it's not AC. Unless of course you know better...

Farrah

[HairBear]

Oh Rose, I mean no ill, I'm just rattling her cage. Farrah and I have a bit of a history and I do hope she sees the gist of my wicked ways.

Farrah, for one no, that is not how a transformer works. Secondly, your reasoning pertaining to ionization is fragmented and incoherent. I apologize for such harsh behavior, but, there comes a time when a good shaking is needed in order to establish a misunderstanding and to overcome it. Please understand that I did it for your benefit which you may see here in the near future. Well, let's just make this short and sweet and see where you go from here...

Quotes from attached literature...

"The quest for generating a high voltage supply from an available lower voltage supply has existed since the discovery of electricity. The invention of the “induction ring” by Michael Faraday, the British physicist and chemist, in 1831, began the process of generating high voltages from an available lower input voltage using transformers. The need for producing even higher voltages was accentuated by the requirements from physicists, using particle accelerators, to create high energy particles for studying subatomic physics. It was only during this time that Cockcroft and Walton invented a novel method for generating extremely high voltages using a unique connection of discrete diodes and capacitors—a technique that was later adopted by John F. Dickson for implementation on a modern integrated circuit. This chapter will start by examining the transformer and its shortcomings and then gradually lead to a discussion of Dickson’s implementation of the charge pump.

1.1 Using a Transformer to Generate High Voltages

A transformer makes it possible to convert AC power at a given voltage level to AC power at a different voltage level. It, of course, cannot increase the maximum power that could be delivered to the output load through the transformation process. In the ideal situation, the power delivered at the transformed output is equal to the power consumed at the input port. If the transformed voltage level is raised, the current at transformed node is proportionally lowered, and vice versa. The transformer, shown in Figure 1-1, is constructed using a ferromagnetic core around which two sets of coils, or multiple coils, of insulated wire are wrapped. The input line connects to the “primary” coil, whereas the output lines connect to the “secondary” coils. The alternating current in the primary coil induces an alternating magnetic flux that “flows” around the ferromagnetic core, changing direction during each electrical cycle. The alternating flux in the core, in turn, induces an alternating current in each of the secondary coils. The voltage at the output of the secondary coils is directly related to the primary voltage by the turn’s ratio, or the number of turns in the primary coil divided by the number turns in the secondary coil."

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"In order to explain how air becomes a conductor, we refer to an experiment by Wilson: If you cool down a large air column saturated with steam, the water precipitates, because the colder air cannot carry as much water vapour as before. In general, the excess of steam precipitates as fog, dust particles in the air induce condensation and become carriers of the water drops. If the air is free from dust and cooled down very rapidly, for example, by an adiabatic expansion, it can become saturated with water vapour. When it is expanded, the air then holds more vapour in gaseous form than corresponds to its temperature. This excess is in a labile sate; hence, if you insert just a trace of dust into the space, condensation in the form of drops occurs immediately. Strangely enough, the fog the also forms as X- or radium-rays act on the air. The fog is then so fine that is remains floating for a long time. It also differs from the fog, formed on dust particles, in that every droplet is charged electrically: If you let an electric field act on the fog (say, insert two parallel plates, connected to the poles of a battery into the space), you will see that the droplets migrate in equal numbers to the positive and negative poles. We recall here the electrolytic processes in which also very small charged particles - ions - carry the current. The processes in electrically conducting gases are indeed similar, however with one important difference. In the electrolyte, the ions already exist, in gases they must first be generated. The formation of ions in gases is called ionization, the gas in its state of conductivity is ionized, the equipment for the formation of ions is an ionizer. (Ionization by means of ultra-violet light, X-rays, radioactive rays, glowing metals, burning gas, electronic collision.)"

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I think once you get over this hump, we might be able to start discussing actual equations and both of us will be on the same page. I promised you earlier that I would refrain from using the words of Stan Meyer as a reference which I have kept up on my end, never the less, if you fail to comprehend the fundamentals of the subject at hand, how can we have any chance of a progressive discussion?

Finally, I would hope for you to return the favor if needed. If my ego goes unchecked and I am making a blatant mistake and being smug about it, smack me up with a reality check and let me have it. Call me a retard, get me really angry, whatever it takes. Hopefully I will see the point and learn from my foolish mistakes. But please, back it up with substance and not assumptions...

Please enjoy the rest of your day and enjoy a good book. I am attaching what I hope you to find enlightening and inspirational. Good day ladies!

K9 Passage of electricity through gases

Dielectric phenomena in high voltage engineering : Peek, F. W. (Frank William), b. 1881 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

[Farrah Day]

Rattle away HB...

Farrah, for one no, that is not how a transformer works. Secondly, your reasoning pertaining to ionization is fragmented and incoherent. I apologize for such harsh behavior, but, there comes a time when a good shaking is needed in order to establish a misunderstanding and to overcome it. Please understand that I did it for your benefit which you may see here in the near future. Well, let's just make this short and sweet and see where you go from here...

Look, there's little point in us arguing the issue if neither of us intends to yield... and you know me!

It seems that only a third party who knows his or her stuff, and is not going to side with either one of us for reasons other than the truth, will be able to settle this.

As I said, this was never an issue for me because all I wanted was a pulsing electric field, which I get from the ignition coil.

I take it your issue is the fact that I casually commented previously that I expected the HV output to be DC anyway.

It's all very well quoting bits and bobs from here and there (none of which incidentally appears relevant in this matter), but unless you better understand induction coupling and transformer principles, you will always say, quote: "that is not how a transformer works".

There is a very big difference in the way a regular step-up/step-down, or indeed isolating transformer works and operates, when compared to a car ignition coil. Though they both rely on induction coupling, the principles of operation are very different... which I thought I'd outlined quite well in my last post.

As far as my reasoning pertaining to ionisation being 'fragmented and incoherent' is concerned, I must say I don't know how or why you have come to this conclusion.

It's nice however, that you're only posting your concerns for my benefit... how thoughtful

Farrah

[HairBear]

I take it your issue is the fact that I casually commented previously that I expected the HV output to be DC anyway.

There is a very big difference in the way a regular step-up/step-down, or indeed isolating transformer works and operates, when compared to a car ignition coil. Though they both rely on induction coupling, the principles of operation are very different... which I thought I'd outlined quite well in my last post.

So, are you stating that you know for sure that your ignition coil is outputting a DC signal? Can you you prove that? Please, if not you, anyone show me a transformer of any type that produces DC without the use of diodes.

Why are you trying to dodge the bullet when you've already shot yourself in the foot with it!

[Farrah Day]

So, are you stating that you know for sure that your ignition coil is outputting a DC signal? Can you you prove that? Please, if not you, anyone show me a transformer of any type that produces DC without the use of diodes.

Why are you trying to dodge the bullet when you've already shot yourself in the foot with it!

Where am I trying to dodge any bullets? Where have I shot myself in the foot? I don't understand you.

You're begining to remind me of Wilby, he'd play on words and argue just for the sake of it.

Can I prove it?? From the start I only said I assumed the output to be DC, and I've fully explained the reasons why I thought this to be so. I've fully explained the operation of the ignition coil as I see it and hence my reasoning?

If you see it another way then you please feel free to explain yourself... I've already done just that. What more can I do?

Why do I get the feeling you're just having a dig for the sake of it?

Farrah

[Farrah Day]

Here HB, check out this link and see if you still feel the same way about the ignition coil after reading it.

Note that you see the effect (spark) from simply switching off the dc supply... and then ask yourself where in the circuit does any AC play a part.

National High Magnetic Field Laboratory - Ignition Coil Tutorial

I hereby rest my case.

Farrah

[HairBear]

Where in your reference does it state the output is DC? The true output of any ignition coil results in a dampened oscillation(AC). A Tesla Coil follows the same principals only it is designed as a dual resonant pulse transformer. The result is the same, a dampened AC oscillation. Easily seen with an oscilloscope. Nice try though...

[witsend]

Quotes from attached literature...

1.1 Using a Transformer to Generate High Voltages

A transformer makes it possible to convert AC power at a given voltage level to AC power at a different voltage level. It, of course, cannot increase the maximum power that could be delivered to the output load through the transformation process. In the ideal situation, the power delivered at the transformed output is equal to the power consumed at the input port.

Ok HairBear. Here's the first point. A transformer without an iron core - can be energised from an interrupted DC power supply. In this event the AC component is generated from the collapsing fields in the transformer itself. It is evident that during this second phase of each cycle - when the supply source is effectively removed, then - subject to a required 'path' the current resulting from this CEMF can be returned to the DC supply source. In the event that the DC supply source is a battery supply then its recharge is measurable. This has been proved. Therefore, I put it to you that if this text book lesson represents 'state of the art' knowledge, then it is - in truth - already obsolete. Whatever the argument - the fact is that this regenerated 'cycle' - that cycle of energy that is 'returned' when the switch is 'open' and the supply source effectively disconnected - then that cycle is achieved at no 'cost' of energy from the supply and that the current that is then developed is technically 'AC' albeit delivered from a DC supply.

It may be argued that the returning energy in that second cycle is the result of 'stored energy' thereby limiting the value of the power transferred through both cycles to '1'. I am not arguing that here. I also put it to you that the range of 'use' of that second cycle is wide. It can be used to generate a 'spark'. It can be directed - through component parts - back to the supply or back to the load. If the switch is a 'reed type' without the benefits of inherent body diodes or some such available in a MOSFET then that energy can still be routed back to the supply or to the load with the same consequent benefits - albeit that the rate of 'resonance' would then be prescribed.

And one can therefore, unquestionably, generate a modified or 'type of' AC supply from a DC supply source. And also therefore, the following point 'A transformer makes it possible to convert AC power at a given voltage level to AC power at a different voltage level.' is an insufficient description. Correctly it should also add that 'a transformer also makes it possible to convert DC power at a given voltage level to AC power at a different voltage level. The sum of the power returned in that 'AC' component may entirely replenish the sum of the power delivered in the first instance.'

If your text book references are to be relied on - then they should be an accurate description of all potentials. Unless it elaborates on this elsewhere.
EDIT. Farrah, surely you can make use of this potential somewhere in your circuit?

[Farrah Day]

Where in your reference does it state the output is DC? The true output of any ignition coil results in a dampened oscillation(AC). A Tesla Coil follows the same principals only it is designed as a dual resonant pulse transformer. The result is the same, a dampened AC oscillation. Easily seen with an oscilloscope. Nice try though...

It's not the same as a Tesla circuit... is it? There is no resonant charging cct... don't you see... there is no capacitor?? A Tesla cct is AC, this is not!

Unless you even try to understand how a pulse/trigger transformer/ignition coil operates then clearly I'm wasting my time, and if it's simply a matter that you can't get your head around it, then I'll be wasting my time forever and a day.

I've gone out of my way and persevered for long enough in this and it's now becoming tedious. Instead of pasting quotes, if you think that you can get AC from simply opening a switch from a 12v supply source (as in that link I posted), then please enlighten me. If you can't personally explain how this can happen, then perhaps it's time to relent, eh?

Farrah

[Farrah Day]

EDIT. Farrah, surely you can make use of this potential somewhere in your circuit?

Yep, Rosie, that's the general idea, but I'm now seeing that the ignition coil driver allows too much current to flow. That is why the Joule Thief ccts are becoming more and more appealing.

Farrah

[HairBear]

How ironic! And then you even dig a deeper hole by mentioning a joule thief... What's next? Try a Bedini, Stiffler, (dare I say)Stan Meyer? Is that the idea, to blindly put pieces of technology together without understanding the fundamentals of each piece?

Rose, the way the driver circuitry is designed and it's fine details of operation have little to do with basic electrolysis. As long as the circuit outputs a definite DC signal, whether it be flat or reactive, your good to go. Any AC in the tiniest amount will counteract against the inertia of the ionic and current flows. In other words, no matter which device you choose as a driver, albeit, a Stiffler, joule thief, 555 and coil, if you are able to shock yourself with it and your certain the power is flowing, but, attached to a simple two plate cell you don't see gasses evolving, you more than likely have an AC signal output which can easily be remedied with a suitable diode. With all due respect Rose, I understand you are a busy person, but, have you done any experimenting with water electrolysis?

[sebosfato]

So, are you stating that you know for sure that your ignition coil is outputting a DC signal? Can you you prove that? Please, if not you, anyone show me a transformer of any type that produces DC without the use of diodes.

Why are you trying to dodge the bullet when you've already shot yourself in the foot with it!

Transformer is a big world but you can create a very high amp low voltage dc generator that if used with resonance can make miracles... You just need a pump, a liquid, electrodes and magnets... MHD

[Farrah Day]

HB

You seem now to have resorted to continually contorting things I have said in my posts, obviously you're just looking for any excuse, however tenuous, to have a dig.

I see now that the whole point of this exercise is to simply try to undermine me... well good luck with that!

A little more reading up and learning, and less thoughtless retort might serve you well. This stuff is obviously all going straight over your head - I suggest you give it up before you make a bigger fool of yourself!

I won't be responding to anymore of your childish posts.

That's it, end of conversation.