Basic Electrolysis

[Bob Boyce]

If you would refer again to the link I posted, and scroll down to "Alternatives", then you would see that irradiation to create a desired isotope is an ALTERNATIVE to seperation.

Surely you are not so niave as to believe that even distilled water is so pure as to contain no other elements besides the bound hydrogen and oxygen. Or that matter cannot be broken down and reformed via application of energies. If so, then I am likely wasting my time.

Matter is energy. If one can learn how to interfere with the energy matrix of that matter, one can alter that matter. The simplest patterns are the components that make up the smallest components in atoms. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe because the hydrogen atom has the simplest energy matrix of all atoms. Therefore, it is also the easiest atom to alter.

Bob Boyce

[Farrah Day]

If you would refer again to the link I posted, and scroll down to "Alternatives", then you would see that irradiation to create a desired isotope is an ALTERNATIVE to seperation.

Perhaps you hadn't noticed that I actually posted the ALTERNATIVES section in my reply??

Surely you are not so niave as to believe that even distilled water is so pure as to contain no other elements besides the bound hydrogen and oxygen. Or that matter cannot be broken down and reformed via application of energies. If so, then I am likely wasting my time.

Distilled water can be made very pure, but as soon as it is exposed to the atmosphere, atmospheric gases will start to dissolve in it - but what elements you are refering to as contaminants in distilled water is, well, quite frankly anyones guess!

I think we are both wasting our time on this one. If you thought there was anything in it you would have picked up the ball and run with it long ago. I guess you never quite figured out how to transmute elements in an electrolyser did you - perhaps you needed to stir it more?

Matter is energy. If one can learn how to interfere with the energy matrix of that matter, one can alter that matter. The simplest patterns are the components that make up the smallest components in atoms. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe because the hydrogen atom has the simplest energy matrix of all atoms. Therefore, it is also the easiest atom to alter.

Bob Boyce

Sounds really good, and so simple when you put it like that... can't understand why everyone's not doing it! Where are the Alchemists when you need them?

You think because deuterium is a small element that it is easy to create??

You really think that deuterium can be created in a simple electrolyser that is being irradiated under the bonnet of a car... and you have the gall to call me naive!!

It's the same old story really isn't it.

People spout all sorts of conjecture, wild speculation or utter nonsense, without providing anything by way of clarity, elaboration or anything even close to a scientific explanation... and are then offended when challenged.

And I ask all sorts of questions... none of which ever get answers. Yawn.

This is the very stuff that the crazies on these forums thrive on - they'll all be merrily making deuterium in their electrolysers soon now!

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Common denominator

If you were to look at different threads there is a common denominator, and NO, I am not going to spell it out.

I am being serious about this, it is no joke, there is a common denominator to OU, excess energy, whatever you want to call it, and yes, it can be done with electrolysis or the type of!

Farraday keep up your idea, you are a long way off at the moment, but keep up the direction (hint) as if you didn't know.

Mike

[Mr. Green]

Hi guys

I've been a lurker for several years and haven't spent any time reading forums for quite some time. Not sure how I came across this particular thread yesterday but the fundamental question posed by its author is truly the only one which needs to be answered. Everything else will fall into place once we can prove what happens through the intermediate stage of electrolysis.

Farrah Day does have an approach to discovering things and adding to knowledge along with a critical thought process which we share.

Bob Boyce has a wealth of practical experience and an understanding which eludes most everyone.

Things I don't buy into are invented terms and seemingly unidentifiable forces at work. Granted, many forces at work are a mystery to humans and many theories exist to explain outcomes which we do not understand. But electrolysis is something we can easily control, therefore we should be able to describe every facet in perfect detail.

Where people get lost is following the two half reactions involved, one at the anode and one at the cathode. Bubbles of gas forming on each electrode make sense, but, as Bob has stated, bubbles of gas form in between the electrodes once 'resonance' has been achieved. This is what I want to understand.

Once the electrolyte is fully entrained at its full potential to absorb electrons from applied voltage and electrolysis begins, we have an intermediate product heading for the opposite electrode where it will complete the electrolytic process, releasing oxygen and forming new water molecules, according to one particular school of thought.

Is this intermediate state where we have an opportunity to pursue a hybrid electrolytic process where efficiencies beyond Faraday's published works are achievable? If we are to gain the same control of hybrid electrolysis as we have over basic electrolysis, we must fully describe the modification and its effect in terms which are as well documented as the simple application of electrical potential to a cathode and anode in a conductive solution of water and NOH, for example.

So, thank you Farrah Day for trying to get everyone to understand the basics at a fundamental level, rather than "Hey, if you connect a battery here you'll get gas here and double your mileage".

And thank you Bob Boyce for sharing your experiences and technical achievements along with guidance.

What can I add to the work? Dunno. Asking questions always stimulates the mind to find answers.

[HairBear]

Hello Mr Green! Nice to meet you! I have attached a pdf outlining some studies related to the subject of this topic which I feel may add something to the collective. One of the issues I try to ensue is the voltage differential between electrodes and how it may effect electrons and ions in the solution(water). Not only that but, other reactions and emissions brought on by such an environment.

[Mr. Green]

Stiffler's SEC

Interestingly, the paper you've linked may apply to Stiffler's SEC and actually describe what is happening.

Even with the level of research discipline demonstrated it seems that they have difficulty with the specifics and this is excused by stating the purpose of the study was to determine effects of solution conductivity on production and not on the disassociation routes taken.

How does this apply to basic electrolysis? I don't think it does. But it is important to be knowledgeable to the variety of potential modifications to basic electrolysis that will help us ultimately achieve the goal of heretofore undocumented levels of efficiency through Hybrid Electrolysis.

Is plasma a factor in 'resonance drive' electrolysis? With a Boyce/Holdgate 101 plate unit at 200 volts it may be possible but doubtful and I'm sure that Bob can dispel any misconception there.

Going back to the thread title, understanding what is actually happening with basic electrolysis isn't commonly or satisfactorily understood, but accepted. That seems to be the contention of the author and I agree.

[HairBear]

What is resonance drive electrolysis exactly? Can you show us a demonstration?

[Mr. Green]

What is resonance drive electrolysis exactly? Can you show us a demonstration?

Sorry, that is the Bob Boyce concept. I don't know how it works. I have read all the information available and watched all of the video. Somehow the DC current applied to the multi-plate series cell is manipulated at three different frequencies using a specially wound toroidal ring and a multi channel PWM. You seek a resonant state in the electrolytic cell and, once achieved, gas production goes through the roof.

I did see a video where Bob said he had explored the use of pulse amplifiers but did not describe the results or why that particular line of research was abandoned.

Of all the published experiments and methods to manipulate basic electrolysis, this one I found to be plausible. Statements have been to the effect that resonance has been stabilized for as long as two hours, with gas production at more than five times Faraday's result for a given input.

Mr. Boyce provides virtually every piece of information necessary to replicate his design although no one seems to be able to document a successful build. I believe it can and has been done.

The problem with accepting 'resonant drive' as a reality is that a satisfactory explanation does not exist and no sufficient data to demonstrate success exists.

Keep in mind that I believe that it is possible. I have great respect for the work Mr. Boyce has published and an appreciation for the years of frustration he endured as people tried to label his work as their own along with big brother harassment.

I don't believe that scalar waves and zero point energy is involved. That is why what Farrah Day seeks with this thread is so important to the overall success of anyone trying to document their research and reaching the ultimate goal of using water as a fuel. How many guys do you know who wound some stainless wire in a water filter and filled it with baking soda/water two years ago? Then stuck it under the hood and told everyone their gas mileage went up significantly? That is an unsupported claim we all know to be false. But they would not have gone through the motions without hope of success.

So much misinformation exists and the process of experimentation is haphazard at best. Basic electrolysis is the starting point. Building a electrolyzer that is safe, consistent and efficient is where we begin. Understanding exactly what happens when electrical energy is applied and actually seeing it is next. Then apply the modification, which we're currently talking about the Boyce 'resonant drive' and observe the effect. I've never seen it.

But, let's say it is for real, and we observe it. If we understand completely the process of electrolysis, we'll find it easier to actually define what is happening in the Hybrid Electrolysis resulting from the introduction of the modulated electrical energy applied to the electrolyzer through the circuitry designed by Mr. Boyce.

[Farrah Day]

In reply to an email:

Firstly, with reference to Kanzius, I was extremely fascinated by this phenomenon (still am), as there is no charge exchange medium, so normal electrolysis ionic reactions as we know them can not possibly be taking place.

After giving this much thought, and regarding the lazy orange flame, I don't think that the water is breaking down at all. Bearing in mind that he was using saltwater, I think it is more likely that this is a sodium flame, and that it is in fact sodium/sodium chloride reaction to the EMR. The reaction needs to be fully understood and established, but clearly it is not hydrogen that is burning. To the best of my knowledge 13.56 MHz is simply the allocated frequency for medical and experimental equipment.

Some early WFC replications by Dave Lawton seemed to show over-Faraday results from any given input power, and this was put down to cell conditioning. At the time I had my doubts, because, as per usual, all sorts of exotic theories were being banded about with no rationale or anything by way of a supporting argument.

So what is conditioning?

Well there seems to be two schools of thought here. One is that it is simply the leaching of the reactive steel from the surface of the stainless steel electrodes, which eventually all reacts out and is accordingly covered by the inert chromium oxide layer. This makes some sense, because as long as there is unwanted reactions of steel (or anything else), this will detract from the efficiency of the cell in terms of gas evolution.

Another more interesting area of contention regarding cell conditioning is the build up of a mineral coating. It is actually quite easy to condition cells this way when using mineral rich (or hard) tap water. Most of the mineral content is calcium carbonate from limestone, which builds up as scale on plumbing, taps, kettles, etc. I’ve found that this mineral coating can be quickly built up on the cathode by doping water with calcium carbonate. So electrode conditioning might actually be a combination of the reduction of reactive leaching elements and a build up of the mineral coating (which may actually inhibit leaching).

But what does it achieve?

Well, I can tell you that it is an extremely good insulator (I could not even register a resistance reading on my multimeter). But while being a good insulator, on a macro level it is would appear to be porous, like a sponge, so still allows charges to be exchanged.

If the mineral coating is a good insulator, it follows that it will be a good dielectric, which means that there may well be a voltage drop across the mineral layer. So, though the coating may be porous, on a macro scale, it may appear that there are millions of little capacitors between the electrode and the water.

Since then, I've researched this more and have my own ideas of what might be going on. One particular phenomenon regarding Dave Lawton’s cell always stuck in my mind, and this was that the cell was seen to glow near the electrodes in the dark - some sort of luminescence. This only happened with cells that had their electrodes 'conditioned'.

Now, bearing in mind that Lawton was pulsing his cells and apparently getting voltages upward of 1000V, it may be that these little capacitors were effectively charging up to a point whereby he was actually getting plasma discharges.

In this scenario, Faraday’s Laws still hold true, as they don’t apply unless charges are being exchanged, which is often where people get all confused and start talking about Faraday’s Laws no longer being valid, etc.

If there are plasma discharges involved, then the paper that HB attached a few posts earlier might well come into play. (See pdf posted by HB)

Like Mr. Green, I don’t think that paper has any relevance to standard electrolysis, but pulsed electrolysis with conditioned plates might be a different story, because as shown in the paper, plasma discharges can directly create radicals, OH, O, H and amongst other things molecular H2 and O2.

We need to put our ideas and theories out here and bounce them about a bit. Not often, but occasionally someone picks something up and responds with something that opens up a new door or triggers new thoughts.

Where people get lost is following the two half reactions involved, one at the anode and one at the cathode. Bubbles of gas forming on each electrode make sense, but, as Bob has stated, bubbles of gas form in between the electrodes once 'resonance' has been achieved. This is what I want to understand.

Me too. Logic dictates that we cannot get bubbles of hydrogen and oxygen forming between electrodes as any ions thereabouts simply have nowhere to exchange charges. I have never personally seen this phenomenon occurring, and indeed I’ve often wondered how anyone claims to have seen this given that the electrode plates are only1/8th inch apart, and bubbles of gas move about as they rise through the liquid. Surely even if this was happening, it would be extremely hard to detect it amongst all the other bubbles of gas evolving between closely spaced electrodes.

Nevertheless, whether I’m inclined to believe this or not, I cannot categorically rule it out. One possibility is cavitation. If the pulsing voltages actually create a mechanical flexing of the electrodes then we might get rarefaction and compression of the fluid medium. In this scenario though, only any dissolved gases and water vapour would result. So we might get oxygen but no hydrogen.

Never simple and straight-forward, is it?

[Farrah Day]

Scroll down to around page 39 of this document:

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf

Dave Lawtons WFC electronics now looks very like a more complex JD/Slayer exciter. Using a PWM gave Dave Lawton more control, but it makes you wonder if all the extra electronics are actually necessary.

With reference to resonance, this is something that people have been puzzling over for a long time, with no one being able to actually pin it down and say exactly what it is.

We hear about resonance and tuning to find resonance, but I'm yet to hear an explanation of what it is, what it is actually achieving in terms of reactions and what exactly is resonating.

Well, if we start to put all the pieces of the puzzle together now: Meyer, Boyce, Lawton and more recently JD and Slayer, etc, then it would seem to me that we are simply tuning a cct to get the greatest voltage at the lowest current - the very definition of a parallel LC tuned cct.

If electric fields induce the water to ionise, then it would be logical to expect that the higher the voltages and the faster the pulses, the better. This would mean that we were not relying solely on the current through the water (or electrolyte) to do the ionising.

The biggest problem with this scenario is that as long as the water itself is part of the parallel cct, then we will have tuning issues. So why not simply take the water out of the tuning cct altogether. This is effectively what I'm attempting to do with my Closed-Loop Electrolyser. The water can still be influenced by the electric field of a tuned cct, and hence ionised, but without actually being a part of it.

So the question then remains, do we require a specific frequency (regarding photon energy levels), for optimum ionisation of the water, or will any frequency of pulsing electric field do the trick? If the latter, it would mean that a specific energy of photon is not triggering the water molecule to ionise - but if this is so, how is the water molecule absorbing energy?

I'm probably asking myself too many questions that are not particularly important in terms of getting results, but they act as a reminder for later.

[indra1]

Hi Farrah,
Just a thought, the resonance can be acoustic mechanical resonance leading to cavitation. Cavitation bubbles bursting under intense electric field may promote plasma glow, micro localized high temperature and efficient gas evolution.

Indrawan

[Farrah Day]

Hi Farrah,
Just a thought, the resonance can be acoustic mechanical resonance leading to cavitation. Cavitation bubbles bursting under intense electric field may promote plasma glow, micro localized high temperature and efficient gas evolution.

Indrawan

Yes, agreed. It's possible that if cavitation is happening and the bubbles are collapsing within the liquid that sonoluminescence may occur. I've got to say though, that cavitation is not near the top of my list. I think there are more likely explanations. Time will no doubt tell.

[Vickers]

Here is a easy water resonance experiment. Download this.Tone Generator Software Download
Output to a reasonable amplifier and a piezo speaker.
Place speaker in glass of water.
Dont use to much volume as these frequencies can harm the amplifier.
Simply sweep from 0hz to 20000.
U will be surprised to find bubbles forming and aggressive surface rippling at a variety of different Hz.
Have fun.

[HairBear]

Generally, strong electric fields applied to water(electrohydraulic discharge) initiate various chemical and physical processes in water. Depending on the type of discharge these processes include intense ultraviolet radiation, overpressure shock waves and, of particular importance, formation of reactive chemical species such as radicals (OH-, O-, H-) and molecular species (H2O2, H2, O2, O3).

[Farrah Day]

Here is a easy water resonance experiment. Download this.Tone Generator Software Download
Output to a reasonable amplifier and a piezo speaker.
Place speaker in glass of water.
Dont use to much volume as these frequencies can harm the amplifier.
Simply sweep from 0hz to 20000.
U will be surprised to find bubbles forming and aggressive surface rippling at a variety of different Hz.
Have fun.

Yes, but this produces an acoustic wave - a physical pressure wave - which I don't see as being the likely candidate for excess or efficient gas output in an electrolyser. As I touched on previously, the main problem for me with the cavitation theory is, given the close spacing of electrodes, how has anyone actually been able to physically see this happening? I've never seen or heard anything by way of real proof from a reliable source to substantiate this, so I'm more than a little concerned it might be just another faerie story. Ok I suppose if you've got time to waste chasing giant white rabbits down rabbit holes into Wonderland!

Anyway, given the recent developments with low power EMR ionising water, this would seem to be the most promising way forward. Hence I'll personally be putting all my efforts behind making progress in this area.

Generally, strong electric fields applied to water(electrohydraulic discharge) initiate various chemical and physical processes in water. Depending on the type of discharge these processes include intense ultraviolet radiation, overpressure shock waves and, of particular importance, formation of reactive chemical species such as radicals (OH-, O-, H-) and molecular species (H2O2, H2, O2, O3).
Today 12:50 PM

You're back to plasma discharges here again HB, which is pretty well covered in that first pdf file you posted. What you're talking about here relates to high electric fields from electrodes within the water creating plasma discharges, and is certainly not applicable to what most of us are experimenting with.