Basic Electrolysis

[HairBear]

My Bad! I was in a hurry and didn't have much time to explain my recent posts. You were mentioning a bit about Dave Lawton's setup emitting a glow after the cathode layer had developed which is what I was intending to elaborate on a little more. What are the recent developments with low power EMR ionising water? How is the water ionized and what exactly is the atomic properties of ionized water? From my understanding, water can not be ionized unless you are pertaining to electrolytes as ions. The water has to be disassociated to it's respective gasses first and then the gasses could be ionized, more than likely from high voltages. Yes, high voltages can also be low power. Coronal or plasma discharges also do not require high power for the processes to occur.

A while back when Ravi had mentioned he noticed the glow, I set out to find out what it was and thought it might be cavitational sonoluminescence. I was wrong and found the glow to be a coronal discharge although, I was able to see it without any cathode layer present. I just added some resistance to the cathode which seemed to work as well as the cathode layer.

[Mookie]

" How is the water ionized and what exactly is the atomic properties of ionized water? From my understanding, water can not be ionized
unless you are pertaining to electrolytes as ions. The water has to be disassociated to it's respective gasses first "

Hairbair

With regard to your statement here in quotes; I absolutely agree with you after three years of testing that exact premise. It appears to be a solid fundamental on which to base an understanding of the electrolysis process.

Now if we can only find a way to describe the very brief life of one lonely ion as it exists in the electrolysis process. That would be going to the real heart of the question. Maybe you and Farrah, or anyone else for that matter, could take a crack at that one.

The answer to that question escapes us all. Not answering it, is just dodging the original title of this thread.

...one lonely ion.

Mookie

[HairBear]

Mookie, I may have worded my questions oddly, for my intention was to have a better understanding of what Farrah means when she writes "ionize the water". Is an electron being taken from the molecule or added to it? When I read the word ionization of anything such as gas or even an insulator, I get the impression of matter being broken down through coronal or plasma discharges.

Quote from the Wiki...

"Ionization is the physical process of converting an atom or molecule into an ion by adding or removing charged particles such as electrons or other ions. This is often confused with dissociation (chemistry).

The process works slightly differently depending on whether an ion with a positive or a negative electric charge is being produced. A positively-charged ion is produced when an electron bonded to an atom (or molecule) absorbs enough energy to escape from the electric potential barrier that originally confined it, thus breaking the bond and freeing it to move. The amount of energy required is called the ionization potential. A negatively-charged ion is produced when a free electron collides with an atom and is subsequently caught inside the electric potential barrier, releasing any excess energy."


"Dissociation in chemistry and biochemistry is a general process in which ionic compounds (complexes, or salts) separate or split into smaller particles, ions, or radicals, usually in a reversible manner. When a Bronsted-Lowry acid is put in water, a covalent bond between an electronegative atom and a hydrogen atom is broken by heterolytic fission, which gives a proton and a negative ion. Dissociation is the opposite of association and recombination. The process is frequently confused with ionization."

Isn't the path of this discussion directed toward more efficient ways to produce combustible gasses from water whether the process is electrolysis or not? To me it is apparent electrolysis, no matter how you try to make it more efficient circuit wise, ends up a dead end with Faraday's Laws repeatedly holding it's grip on test results. Things start to change though, when the voltage is increased to a point where we can see coronal discharges. Instead of disassociation being the dominant process, we start to see the water breaking down from the coronal discharge more than disassociation.

[sucahyo]

Here is a easy water resonance experiment. Download this.Tone Generator Software Download
Output to a reasonable amplifier and a piezo speaker.
Place speaker in glass of water.
Dont use to much volume as these frequencies can harm the amplifier.
Simply sweep from 0hz to 20000.
U will be surprised to find bubbles forming and aggressive surface rippling at a variety of different Hz.
Have fun.

Can you share the frequency? I failed.

[witsend]

HairBear - between you, Farrah and sundry posters here - I feel I'm learning this subject from EXPERTS. Really nice. Many thanks for these detailed explanations.

[indra1]

Yes, but this produces an acoustic wave - a physical pressure wave - which I don't see as being the likely candidate for excess or efficient gas output in an electrolyser. . . .

Hi Farrah,
An acoustic resonance is probably an efficient way to induce very low pressure region which under some condition producing vacuum cavitation bubbles. Water in very low pressure region tends to be at gaseous phase. Wouldn't it be likely that under intense electric field, high temperature and low pressure that H2O gas evolves into H2 and O2, probably when the corona glow is observed?
We know that gas evolution on electrolytic cell happens mostly on the elctrode-electrolyte boundary. We also know that gas evolution is highly unlikely in the liquid medium under zero pressure gradient, possibly because there is no boundary. Under a certain condition, very low pressure bubble region has a boundary that can act as a gas evolving site, possibly even non electrolytic in nature, hence outside Farraday jurisdiction.

[Farrah Day]

What are the recent developments with low power EMR ionising water? How is the water ionized and what exactly is the atomic properties of ionized water? From my understanding, water can not be ionized unless you are pertaining to electrolytes as ions. The water has to be disassociated to it's respective gasses first and then the gasses could be ionized, more than likely from high voltages.

Ok, there seems to be some confusion here HB. An ion is any atom or molecule that has more or less electrons than it does protons - liquid, solid or gas.

Water self-ionises without the addition of any electrolyte, an electrolyte simply adds greater numbers of ionic species to the water so providing more charge carriers.

If when the water molecule dissociates, it did so cleanly into 2H and O, then we would not need electrodes and indeed electrolysis as we know it would be redundant. However, the fact is that when the water molecule dissociates it does so into H+ and OH-. The hydrogen atom has it's electron pinched by the oxygen/hydrogen molecule, so it has an overall positive charge, hence it is now an ion. Likewise the oxygen/hydrogen molecule now has an extra electron, so is overall negative and hence also an ion (Hydroxyl ion).

Waters O-H bond is the weak link and the first thing to break when the water molecule absorbs too much energy to maintain it's molecular form. But the much stronger positive pull of oxygen's 8 protons is enough to hold onto hydrogen's electron. So that is why we get the ions, H+ and OH-.

Think of a party balloon. You can only blow so much air into it before it bursts. This is the same for the water molecule, it can only absorb so much energy before it dissociates into ions.

What energy is it absorbing?

Well, EMR by it's very nature has energy packets we call photons. Atoms and molecules can absorb these photons and be elevated into higher energy states or greater excitation. But there is a limit to how much excitement an atom or molecule can take before it either loses an electron, or breaks apart as in the water molecule.

Incidentally, ionisation is an endothermic process, so absorbing energy, which makes sense. And likewise the H+ and OH- upon recombining into a water molecule is an exothermic reaction, so gives off, or radiates energy.

Which brings up another possibility for the luminescence detected at electrodes. As the ions recombine into the water molecule that energy radiated might well be a photon of visible light! Food for thought, eh.

Here's an interesting point of note. In a standard electrolyser, the current drawn through the liquid creates heat and so greatly offsets the endothermic reaction of ionisation. Now because the Doc and JD are inducing ionisation without any current flow, there will be a considerable cooling effect of the water.

[Farrah Day]

Hi Farrah,
An acoustic resonance is probably an efficient way to induce very low pressure region which under some condition producing vacuum cavitation bubbles. Water in very low pressure region tends to be at gaseous phase. Wouldn't it be likely that under intense electric field, high temperature and low pressure that H2O gas evolves into H2 and O2, probably when the corona glow is observed?
We know that gas evolution on electrolytic cell happens mostly on the elctrode-electrolyte boundary. We also know that gas evolution is highly unlikely in the liquid medium under zero pressure gradient, possibly because there is no boundary. Under a certain condition, very low pressure bubble region has a boundary that can act as a gas evolving site, possibly even non electrolytic in nature, hence outside Farraday jurisdiction.

Possibly, I don't think anything can be ruled out.

However I feel that certain WFCs are more likely than others to produce one or more of these phenomenons. Based on the particular design and the applied voltage signal/s, there might well be numerous things going on all at the same time in some electrolysers. Finding the most efficient of these reactions, harnessing it, and then developing electrolysers to exploit this reaction may well be the key.

[Vickers]

Can you share the frequency? I failed.

Hey man. Frequency depends on the medium. No SET frequency as far as I know. Some glasses r bigger than others etc... Keep playing with it man. Its a good little tool. You WILL see little bubbles forming and dancing over that little
piezo soon enough. Try stepping 5Hz. I know nothing will happen for awhile on the step but when it does u will be hooked. I guarantee u will find this resonance.

[Vickers]

Farrah day? Electrolysis was previously known as SONIC >>>>>>> something. Oh no. I have forgotten. Go to a big Library. Show them your student ID. Lie to them. Tell them you are writing a thesis on early ALCHEMISTS in order to get a degree or some crap.. Be nice to them. They may give u accsess to the microfilm taken from pre- faraday,tesla etc...writings. extremely rare priceless books. Maybe u can sneak in a camera and be the first to post your findings.

[Farrah Day]

Farrah day? Electrolysis was previously known as SONIC >>>>>>> something. Oh no. I have forgotten. Go to a big Library. Show them your student ID. Lie to them. Tell them you are writing a thesis on early ALCHEMISTS in order to get a degree or some crap.. Be nice to them. They may give u accsess to the microfilm taken from pre- faraday,tesla etc...writings. extremely rare priceless books. Maybe u can sneak in a camera and be the first to post your findings.

lol, sounds like a job for Indiana Jones, not me!

[sucahyo]

Hey man. Frequency depends on the medium. No SET frequency as far as I know. Some glasses r bigger than others etc... Keep playing with it man. Its a good little tool. You WILL see little bubbles forming and dancing over that little
piezo soon enough. Try stepping 5Hz. I know nothing will happen for awhile on the step but when it does u will be hooked. I guarantee u will find this resonance.

Ok. How many amp we need for the amplifier?

[HairBear]

Here is a easy water resonance experiment. Download this.Tone Generator Software Download
Output to a reasonable amplifier and a piezo speaker.
Place speaker in glass of water.
Dont use to much volume as these frequencies can harm the amplifier.
Simply sweep from 0hz to 20000.
U will be surprised to find bubbles forming and aggressive surface rippling at a variety of different Hz.
Have fun.

Does your experiment have the same effects as this Tibetan singing bowl shown in the video link below?

YouTube - Charging water with Singing Bowl

Now, play this video at the same time as the one above and adjust the volumes...

YouTube - Solfeggio Harmonics - 741 HZ - Consciousness Expansion

[lamare]

You may want to take a look at this thread:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...et-effect.html

As far as I can tell any exess energy "delivered" by electrolysis like Stan Meyers Water Fuel Cell comes from the static electric field:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post78805 :

As far as I can tell, at this moment, the only explanation for the existence of excess energy in any capacitor-like system, be it Bedini's caps and batteries or Meyers fuell cell, is the more than likely existence of a super-polarized dielectricum somewhere between the capacitor plates. It appears that in all these systems electrolytic capacitors are being created, with various qualities, depending on things like the used materials and liquids. However, it is clear that such a polarized dielectricum provides an electric field and that the energy for that comes from the vacuum, as explained by Prof. Turtur: http://www.wbabin.net/physics/turtur1e.pdf (page 10-14).

The key to obtaining this energy source and utilizing it, can be found in Bedini's and Meyers technologies (as well as Stiffler) and the understanding of how an electrolytic capacitor works.

[TheCell]

Hi Rosie

I see where you are coming from. I remember seeing an electrolyser design that was quoted as using the current 'twice' in something similar to what you are suggesting.

Pulsed current was used and the current flowed through the electrolyser doing it's job of electrolysing, but then also through an inductor which stored the energy as you say. During the 'off' period between pulses, the energy stored in the inductor was re-used to electrolyse.

So like you say, if this is implemented correctly, we get to re-use the energy. In theory I suppose, with the correct set up, the energy could be bounced back and forth indefinately (no doubt your double battery idea). Though there would naturally be losses, it still should prove to be twice as efficient.

Furthermore, if some sort of resonant state could be achieved, then it might only need a little kick every now and again to keep it going.

Very interesting and something worth investigating. Maybe if my current project hits a wall and flops miserably, I'll be looking into something along these lines.

Let Me Help ... We did this test on our bench with the following results:

1. Large capacitor (see the picture) Hook in parallel on the positive and negative of the cell.
2. When the cell #1 (there are two in the system) is turned on it charges the Cap.
3. Cell #1 turns off and Cell #2 turns on...the cap now has a ground path so it fires. And the cycle continues.. See pictures hopefully attached.

Results:

Without cap at 40 amps and 13.4 volts 4.2 LPM of HHO
With Cap at 40 amps and 13.4 volts 4.5 LPM of HHO

There it is, yes something is gained...just not a lot.

Bob Potchen