Basic Electrolysis

[witsend]

Let Me Help ... We did this test on our bench with the following results:

1. Large capacitor (see the picture) Hook in parallel on the positive and negative of the cell.
2. When the cell #1 (there are two in the system) is turned on it charges the Cap.
3. Cell #1 turns off and Cell #2 turns on...the cap now has a ground path so it fires. And the cycle continues.. See pictures hopefully attached.

Results:

Without cap at 40 amps and 13.4 volts 4.2 LPM of HHO
With Cap at 40 amps and 13.4 volts 4.5 LPM of HHO

There it is, yes something is gained...just not a lot.

Bob Potchen

Bob, hi. Why use capacitors? Surely you just need to take the energy back to a battery? I keep hearing that it's meant to be the same thing. But where? Just because a cap holds a charge? My own take is that the returning current actually 'recharges' the battery. That means the most of whatever was delivered in the one cycle is returned in the second. So. As I see it. 'On' and current goes through an inductor and then to the cell. Off and the current goes straight back to the battery from the inductor. Nothing to the cell. Then. The cell gets the benefit of the one half. The battery gets the benefit of the other? What am I missing?

That would only need a coil and a diode. And if our numbers are duplicated - or even close, the benefit would be significant. It's not a complicated circuit. Just a coil - not too complex because you'd need reasonable current - presumably - for electrolysis. Anyway. That's my tuppence worth.

[Farrah Day]

Vickers - that singing bowl number. Does the water get hot? Does it boil or it is just bubbling?

I've got a brass bowl - but I can't get it to resonate at all. I think it's too small or too thin. But it's solid brass.
__________________

Hi Rosie, take your stemmed wine glass, half fill it with water, hold the base firmly with one hand and with a wet finger rub around the rim.

The glass will begin to resonate and the water in the glass will start to move - it follows your finger in a circular motion. The frequency of the sound obviously depends on how full the glass is, but the water is clearly set into motion by the acoustic waves resonating through it.

I think that the singing bowl is just a variation of this.

With the right amount of water and the correct speed of movement to create the resonant frequency you may be able to set up a standing wave. This will produce constant areas of compression and rarefaction. At the areas of rarefaction the pressure will be reduced to a point whereby the liquid water vapourises.

So yes, the water will in fact be boiling off, but not from heating up, rather from the reduction in pressure (which effectively lowers the boiling point).

Incidentally, I see no evidence that the water is actually being in anyway electrically charged.

However, if it turns out that I'm totally wrong about this, please completely ignore this post... and I'll go and sit quietly in the corner... head down... facing the wall.

[Farrah Day]

Hey baby. Brass will evolve oxygen from water. U smart. I will find u and eat your brain.

I see you're busy making new friends Rosie...

Hope I haven't posted too late...

Are you still there Rosie... or has Vickers ate your brain...?

[Vickers]

Yes.. Obvious.. true...Common sense.

[witsend]

Hi Rosie, take your stemmed wine glass, half fill it with water, hold the base firmly with one hand and with a wet finger rub around the rim.

The glass will begin to resonate and the water in the glass will start to move - it follows your finger in a circular motion. The frequency of the sound obviously depends on how full the glass is, but the water is clearly set into motion by the acoustic waves resonating through it.

I think that the singing bowl is just a variation of this.

With the right amount of water and the correct speed of movement to create the resonant frequency you may be able to set up a standing wave. This will produce constant areas of compression and rarefaction. At the areas of rarefaction the pressure will be reduced to a point whereby the liquid water vapourises.

So yes, the water will in fact be boiling off, but not from heating up, rather from the reduction in pressure (which effectively lowers the boiling point).

Incidentally, I see no evidence that the water is actually being in anyway electrically charged.

However, if it turns out that I'm totally wrong about this, please completely ignore this post... and I'll go and sit quietly in the corner... head down... facing the wall.

Hi Farrah. AT LAST - an answer. LOL. Thanks for this. Now it makes better sense.

Btw. I'm still rabbiting on about that circuit of mine. But don't answer it. I know it's getting tedious. Just? Would LOVE to see you try it. It'll force you to relook that 'electron flow' number - is the challenge.

I'll tell you what. If you can give me a simple cell number to put together I'll see if we can get something tested when we do our tests. I think they're starting next week. How's that? But I'll need a really simple cell. Something that I myself can construct.

[witsend]

I see you're busy making new friends Rosie...

Hope I haven't posted too late...

Are you still there Rosie... or has Vickers ate your brain...?

Hi again. It's slim pickings if he wants a meal there. LOL. But that's what I need Farrah. Friends. Definitely getting marginalised. But what the hell. It's a forum. And it's not as if I'm getting initiated. LOL

[Vickers]

hey farrahday. Have u learnt the pure simplicity and beauty of pre faraday/tesla yet? Example.. U learn of them. Who they learn from?

[Farrah Day]

Hi Rosie

I will try to get around to looking at your idea, but I'm currently up to my eyes in blocking oscillators and exciter hybrids a la Jonny Davro & friends... and everyday life keeps getting in the way as it is. This really is exciting and ground-breaking stuff and plenty enough to occupy myself with.

A basic cell can be as simple as a jam jar of water with two stainless steel pieces of cutlery sitting in it.

[Farrah Day]

hey farrahday. Have u learnt the pure simplicity and beauty of pre faraday/tesla yet? Example.. U learn of them. Who they learn from?

Short answer: No

[witsend]

Hi Rosie
This really is exciting and ground-breaking stuff and plenty enough to occupy myself with.

GREAT STUFF FARRAH. We need good news.

A basic cell can be as simple as a jam jar of water with two stainless steel pieces of cutlery sitting in it.

OK. I'll see if I can get someone in the chemistry dept to give me something. Had no idea it was that simple. I'll see what gives? Would LOVE to think that I'd make a contribution to the Farrah Efffect. Who knows? WHAT THIS SPACE. LOL

[Vickers]

Nice.. So what u got?

[HairBear]

Hi Rose! I'm glad to see you giving a go at electrolysis. Do you have any preconceived concepts of an electrolysis cell? The first thoughts I dealt with before I had ever constructed a cell, I remembered the glass "H" shaped test devices in high school which never impressed me much. What they showed me and taught me was a test and result of electrolysis but with very small and distant electrodes in order to collect the gasses separated. The test is very biased and a poor approach for learning. What they do not allow you to explore, with the apparatus at hand, is the ability to change parameters of the experiment to find anomalies. By simply increasing the surface area of the electrodes and diminishing the space between the plates, we find a very different scenario and our results change dramatically.

From this...


To this...

[lamare]

With reference to resonance, this is something that people have been puzzling over for a long time, with no one being able to actually pin it down and say exactly what it is.

We hear about resonance and tuning to find resonance, but I'm yet to hear an explanation of what it is, what it is actually achieving in terms of reactions and what exactly is resonating.

Well, if we start to put all the pieces of the puzzle together now: Meyer, Boyce, Lawton and more recently JD and Slayer, etc, then it would seem to me that we are simply tuning a cct to get the greatest voltage at the lowest current - the very definition of a parallel LC tuned cct.

Personally, I believe the key to achieving excess energy in electrolysis systems is to be found in the electric field, as I described here:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post78805

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post78881

To sum the whole thing up:

While it is still not totally clear how the dielectric layer behaves exactly, I think it is clear that it is possible to create a strong electric field inside the very thin dielectric, caused by a strong polarization of the dielectric, which can remain polarized for a considerable period of time. As long as this field is considerably stronger than the (opposing!) field created by the capacitor plates, of which one is extented trough the electrolyte liquid to the "surface" of the electrolyte "touching" the dielectric, then the electrolytic capacitor charges itself, apparantly because a significant leakage current goes trough the dielectric. At the same time the strong field inside the dielectric extends well into the electrolyte, and that can cause water to split one way or another into hydrogen and oxygen, whatever intermediate chemicals may be present. This can be observed as "cold boiling" of a battery or gas production in a fuel cell, which are one and the same regarding this process: an electrolytic capacitor. This process has nothing to do with any resonance or timing critical effects, because it has been observed in batteries that these can continue boiling long after the power supply has been shut off.

You may want to take a look at this theory...

[Farrah Day]

Hi Lamare

Things are moving along quite quickly now, and in light of recent developments, I now tend to think that resonance refers to a state whereby a high frequency resonant cct is creating an electric field within the water to induce ionisation.

In the past none of this has made much sense due to the nature of the circuits depicted and the somewhat flawed explanations and arguments - much of which has been completely misleading.

It has been a case of sorting the wheat from the chaffe, but great steps have been made here in the last few weeks.

[lamare]

Things are moving along quite quickly now, and in light of recent developments, I now tend to think that resonance refers to a state whereby a high frequency resonant cct is creating an electric field within the water to induce ionisation.

I don't think resonance is the key, because of one main reason: John Bedini's "cold boiling" batteries:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post78805

Bedini and others have observed batteries "cold boiling" without any consideration of the properties of water or any tuning based on any water properties. Still, the batteries can continue "cold boiling" for up to half an hour after the power has been shut off, clearly without any resonance or any other fast electro-magnetic gradients whatsoever occuring in the system after the power has been shut off. And of course, "cold boiling" is nothing other than the splitting of water into hydrogen and oxygen.

Of course, this may not be the only phenomenon observed, but one thing is certain: Bedini's batteries do "cold boil" *after* the power has been shut of. In other words: there is at least one known way to split water into hydrogen and oxygen that can last long after any power has been fed into the system.

The only way I see to explain that is that a (non permanent) elexctret layer has been formed on the plates inside the batteries, which is basically a polarised insulating layer. One example of such a layer is aluminum oxide, which is actually the dielectric used inside any aluminum based electrolytic capacitor which happens to show similar effects. I.e. "self charging" after having been "conditioned" with Bedini's "radiant" high voltage pulses.

In other words: uni-directional, high voltage pulses appear to be able to polarise the dielectric layer inside any electrolytic capacitor to such an extent that the polarisation lasts for a considerable time. Which means that you can create a semi-permanent free(!) electric field inside capacitors and batteries by creating the proper kind of dielectric layer and keeping it polarised by high voltage, unidirectional pulses.