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  • Hydroxy, Oxyhydrogen, Rhode’s Gas, Brown’s Gas, HHO…?

    Hydroxy, Oxyhydrogen, Rhode’s Gas, Brown’s Gas, HHO…?

    I thought it might be a good idea to start a separate thread that focuses specifically on the properties of gases resulting from common duct electrolysis of water.

    It has occurred to me that there would seem to be no clear distinction between the gases resulting from common duct electrolysis of water, and that of the mixing of stoichiometric amounts of H2 and O2, from say, separate tank sources.

    This sure can create some confusion, as it would seem that the properties of the resulting mixtures are reactively very different. So ideally it would be nice to use terms that differentiated between the two.

    The terms, Rhode’s Gas, Brown’s Gas and dare I say it… HHO, all tend to specifically relate to the gases resulting from a common duct electrolyser - whereby there would seem to exist a substantial proportion of atomic species. Whereas by contrast, the terms Hydroxy and Oxyhydrogen are a little more ambiguous and perhaps, after further consideration, should be resigned just to describing the mixture of molecular H2 and O2 gases in stoichiometric proportions.

    Now, if we take a look at the temperatures produced by the recombination of atomic gases, we get a good idea of the difference’s in energy released.

    To the best of my knowledge these are the figures are fairly representative of fact:

    Dr. Irving Langmuir’s, Atomic Hydrogen Torch: H2 is dissociated through a plasma arc, and as the atomic hydrogen recombines back into H2, it generates temperatures capable of melting Tungsten: <3400 deg. C

    Oxyhydrogen (non-electrolysed H2 and O2 in stoichiometric proportions: 2800 deg. C

    Rhode’s Gas, Brown’s Gas, HHO (from the experimental data of- William Rhodes): <3550 deg. C, >4827 deg. C

    For comparison. Oxy-acetylene: 3315 deg. C

    From the above data is would seem clear that Rhode’s gas releases considerably more energy than molecular Oxyhydrogen, and indeed would appear to better that of hydrogen.

    The big question remains: Why does the atomic species within a quantity of Rhode’s gas not recombine into molecules - what can possibly be the mechanism that prevents this from happening.

    Assuming of course, that this is the right question to be asking in the first place!

    Farrah

  • #2
    Well it could be that the electrolyse proces also charges the atoms a state of repallation.

    "Atomic physics: Neutral atoms put in charge

    Martin Zwierlein1

    Top of pageAbstract
    An elegant experiment shows that atoms subjected to a pair of laser beams can behave like electrons in a magnetic field, as demonstrated by the appearance of quantized vortices in a neutral superfluid.

    Ultracold gases of atoms — a million times thinner than air and a million times colder than interstellar space — allow the observation and control of many-body quantum phenomena at macroscopic scales. They can thus serve as model materials1 for condensed-matter systems in which such phenomena arise."

    Comment


    • #3
      The minimum potential required to ionize Hydrogen is only 13.6eV. As Cherryman has stated above, the positively charged Hydrogen will repel each other and any other positively charged particle in the vicinity. Now if we could positively charge the Oxygen, we would have something able to produce more of a bang, won't we?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Cherryman View Post
        Well it could be that the electrolyse proces also charges the atoms a state of repallation.

        "Atomic physics: Neutral atoms put in charge

        Martin Zwierlein1

        Top of pageAbstract
        An elegant experiment shows that atoms subjected to a pair of laser beams can behave like electrons in a magnetic field, as demonstrated by the appearance of quantized vortices in a neutral superfluid.

        Ultracold gases of atoms — a million times thinner than air and a million times colder than interstellar space — allow the observation and control of many-body quantum phenomena at macroscopic scales. They can thus serve as model materials1 for condensed-matter systems in which such phenomena arise."
        Access : Atomic physics: Neutral atoms put in charge : Nature

        Interesting thanks

        From that paper:


        a, A paddle wheel placed in water flowing with uniform velocity (blue arrows) does not rotate. b, If the water flows non-uniformly and in a different direction on one side of the paddle wheel from that on the other, the wheel rotates (green arrow). The flow pattern is analogous to the 'vector potential' created in Lin and colleagues' experiment2 to generate a synthetic magnetic field for an ultracold cloud of atoms known as a Bose–Einstein condensate. The rotation axis (purple arrow) and the speed with which the paddle wheel rotates correspond respectively to the direction and strength of the magnetic field. c, d, Images of the Bose–Einstein condensate before (c) and after (d) application of the synthetic magnetic field. The appearance of quantized vortices (d) is a direct demonstration of a synthetic magnetic field.

        Comment


        • #5
          Charged Water Gas Clusters & ZPE



          Over at Overunity.com there is a German group that ran their 2.5 HP gas engine off a Common Duct Electrolyzer from the Anton group while also powering the electrolyzer and putting a load on the genset.

          Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !

          Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !

          They took videos of the genset powering the loads and how it is built.
          YouTube - Anton HHO cell drives motor-generator with heavy load around 1000 Watts

          I posted on why they succeeded while others have failed to self run an engine is the Anton cells close spacing of 1 mm, while other designs typically have 1/8" to 3/8" plate spacing.
          Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !

          This is based on Moray Kings theory of Charged Water Gas Clusters. from ZPE.




          "The hypothesis that the zero-point energy is the actual energy source for Brown’s gas comes from observing an experimental coincidence. Charged water gas clusters exhibit the same energetic anomalies as the plasma charged clusters, a microscopic form of ball lightning that has been extensively studied in the experiments by Ken Shoulders. He originally named them “Electrum Validum” (EV) meaning “strong charge,” and later named them “exotic vacuum objects” (EVO) when he became convinced that their excess energy was cohered from the zero-point vacuum fluctuations. To further support the hypothesis, we will review a reference that shows how zero-point energy can be coherently activated within a collapsing microscopic bubble of water via cavity quantum electrodynamics."

          Its an interesting theory. More tests are needed by other "Brown's Gas" researchers to replicate/verify this latest Anton cell design to self run a genset on water.

          Regards, Mike R.

          Comment


          • #6
            Sorry wrong topic.
            Last edited by Cherryman; 05-02-2010, 06:01 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Farrah Day View Post
              Hydroxy, Oxyhydrogen, Rhode’s Gas, Brown’s Gas, HHO…?

              I thought it might be a good idea to start a separate thread that focuses specifically on the properties of gases resulting from common duct electrolysis of water.

              It has occurred to me that there would seem to be no clear distinction between the gases resulting from common duct electrolysis of water, and that of the mixing of stoichiometric amounts of H2 and O2, from say, separate tank sources.

              This sure can create some confusion, as it would seem that the properties of the resulting mixtures are reactively very different. So ideally it would be nice to use terms that differentiated between the two.

              The terms, Rhode’s Gas, Brown’s Gas and dare I say it… HHO, all tend to specifically relate to the gases resulting from a common duct electrolyser - whereby there would seem to exist a substantial proportion of atomic species. Whereas by contrast, the terms Hydroxy and Oxyhydrogen are a little more ambiguous and perhaps, after further consideration, should be resigned just to describing the mixture of molecular H2 and O2 gases in stoichiometric proportions.

              Now, if we take a look at the temperatures produced by the recombination of atomic gases, we get a good idea of the difference’s in energy released.

              To the best of my knowledge these are the figures are fairly representative of fact:

              Dr. Irving Langmuir’s, Atomic Hydrogen Torch: H2 is dissociated through a plasma arc, and as the atomic hydrogen recombines back into H2, it generates temperatures capable of melting Tungsten: <3400 deg. C

              Oxyhydrogen (non-electrolysed H2 and O2 in stoichiometric proportions: 2800 deg. C

              Rhode’s Gas, Brown’s Gas, HHO (from the experimental data of- William Rhodes): <3550 deg. C, >4827 deg. C

              For comparison. Oxy-acetylene: 3315 deg. C

              From the above data is would seem clear that Rhode’s gas releases considerably more energy than molecular Oxyhydrogen, and indeed would appear to better that of hydrogen.

              The big question remains: Why does the atomic species within a quantity of Rhode’s gas not recombine into molecules - what can possibly be the mechanism that prevents this from happening.

              Assuming of course, that this is the right question to be asking in the first place!

              Farrah
              To answer that question would require analysis with specialized lab equipment like a mass spectrometer, gas analyzer etc...

              Common Duct Electrolyzer history.

              Some say "Dad" Garrett's 1930's electrolyzer design was the father of the common duct electrolyzer. News reports of the day says Garrett ran his car all over town and took a newsman to the local lake to show that he used only water to fill up his car. Garrett was an inventor and also patented our Red/Yello/Green traffic light that we all see when stopped at an intersection. Thanks "Dad" Garrett

              Garrett used lead plates for his cells and sulfuric acid as the electrolyte. To date no one has published any reproduction of running a car on his design.

              You mentioned the experiments of Dr. Rhodes with his 1960's patents. Yull Brown, 1970's patents based on Rhodes series cell design, also did experiments and took this technology to the markets so it became widely known. Dr. Rhodes only sold his units to the jewelery markets and the series cell design was unknown until Brown showed up.

              George Wiseman then took over where Brown left off and published booklets on "Brown's Gas" in the 1990's when I discovered this technology.

              Bob Boyce working independently discovered the "common duct" electrolyzer back in the 1980's while using this HHO fuel in the open fuel class of the jet-ski racing competition off the coast of Florida.

              Boyce found that his race driver complained that at a certain engine rpm the jet ski would take off like a rocket. He then took the jet ski and did tests and found that one of the diodes in the alternator was shot and at certain rpm the engine would produce nitro fuel like power and kicked out the water out of his special made dyno test tank.

              Boyce then found that resonance was the key to OU gas production. His 101 plate series cell design uses Tesla Longitudinal energy from his toroid and converts it to OU gas production (30-50 LPM) in his 101 plate cell design.

              Not many people have been successful in reproducing the Boyce as it is very complicated and needs very precise tolerances for resonance. In the DC mode of operation his 101 plate cell produces around 15 LPM, similar to the Brown's Gas units made by Wiseman that one can buy off the shelf today.

              For the past several years the "dry cells" common duct series cell design has found its way to the auto industry to help improve fuel saving in cars. At 1-3 LPM these small units fits inside the auto engine compartment. This design sandwiches the plates together with spacing materials all bolted in one piece.

              Last month a German group published a video showing showing a common duct electrolyzer fueling an engine. The Anton cell is similar to the other "dry cell" design but the key difference is its plate spacing is around 1 mm vs 3 to 10 mm spacing of other units.

              Dr. King theorizes that at 1 mm plate spacing and third type of gas is created from ZPE he termed "charged water clusters" which is different from the typical stoichiometric mixture of atomic hydrogen and oxygen found in "Brown's gas".

              To date there is some obscure independent published experiments with "Brown's Gas" that shows interesting properties but no real analysis from a major university or corporate research lab. No tests have been performed on the gases from the Boyce, Dry Cells or the new Anton Cell designs.

              To get scientist interested in will require an energy breakthrough that is repeatable and verifiable. Up until last month there were not any published breakthroughs over the past 80 years since the days of Garrett. Only unverified claims with no published successful reproductions.

              It remains to be seen if other researchers will be able to reproduce the Anton cell unit and verify self running operation while fueling an engine and powering a load. Until then Brown's Gas, Rhodes Gas, Boyce Gas, Dry Cell Gas, HHO, hydroxy and Anton Gas will remain unexplored of its full understanding and uses.

              Some reported effects of Brown's Gas:
              - Pure 'New' Water Manufacture
              - Hydrated Water for Health
              - Detoxifying Water
              - Atmosphere Enhancement
              - Muscle Relaxation; Pain Relief
              - Speed Healing of Wounds
              - Help Plants Germinate and Grow
              - Neutralization of Radioactive Waste
              - Creating New Industrial Materials
              - Transmutation
              - Inexpensive Toxic Waste Disposal
              - Vastly Increase Recoverable Ore
              - Underwater Breathing Gas
              - Super-Efficient Room Heating
              - Surface Treatment of Materials
              - Combustion Enhancement

              Regards, Mike R.

              Comment


              • #8
                George wiseman method should be treated as different from Bob Boyce method. George wisemann is using very efficient electrolysis at 3 watt / liter that work at any output rate, while Bob Boyce utilize COP>1 circuit in resonance to drive its cell.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by sucahyo View Post
                  George wiseman method should be treated as different from Bob Boyce method. George wisemann is using very efficient electrolysis at 3 watt / liter that work at any output rate, while Bob Boyce utilize COP>1 circuit in resonance to drive its cell.
                  Agreed, but to date no one has published a working Boyce 101 plate unit at resonance.

                  Neither Wiseman's 20 LPM welder unit nor Boyce's 15 LPM from DC input to his 101 plate unit can run an engine, while at the same time powering the cell or additional loads.

                  The Anton cell did. The developers posted a video of self running a 2.5 HP, 1000 watt genset. The gas output of 6 LPM ,from 3- 7 plate cell units, was powered by the genset while fueling the genset.

                  The Anton researchers said did that for hours and used the exhaust heat to heat their office. They then make a short video of a 45 sec. run where the genset also powered and additional 500 watts of load.

                  - How does the Anton cell self-run a 2.5 HP engine on 6 LPM?
                  - Why can't other HHO cells that make 6 to 20 LPM do the same?

                  One theory is the 1 mm plate spacing is creating a higher percentage of "charged water clusters," "electrified water" or something else.

                  More research is needed to verify the Anton cell by other researchers.

                  Regards, Mike R.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Interesting post Vrand

                    I'm aware of the Garret Carb, but my reference to William Rhodes was not so much to point out his patents, but more to point out the fact that he seems to have been the first person to do any kind of scientific analysis of the resulting gas.

                    Boyce then found that resonance was the key to OU gas production. His 101 plate series cell design uses Tesla Longitudinal energy from his toroid and converts it to OU gas production (30-50 LPM) in his 101 plate cell design.

                    Not many people have been successful in reproducing the Boyce as it is very complicated and needs very precise tolerances for resonance. In the DC mode of operation his 101 plate cell produces around 15 LPM, similar to the Brown's Gas units made by Wiseman that one can buy off the shelf today.
                    I'm very aware of Boyce and his history - we have a history.

                    Boyce's claims to me have always been (and I daresay always will be) a great area of contention. I am not aware of any independent body that has ever supported or confirmed his claims, or for that matter verified Tesla Longitudinal Energy has anything to do with anything. Certainly Boyce has never explained how this energy actually plays a part in increasing gas production.

                    He has become a cult figure with a fanatical following, but in reality you have to be extremely naive or gullible to believe everything he has claimed in the past. He has been raided by the MIB on numerous occasions and told to stop his research... or suffer the consequences! He has been struck by lightning 3 times, he has been poisoned by fall out from an air force base where he was the only survivor of his group, he has had terminal cancer at least once before and still lives to tell the tale. Of course he has terminal cancer yet again now, due to being microchipped - not once but twice! All very X-files.

                    Oh yes, and he states that Faraday's Laws of electrolysis no longer hold true today - now that really hurts. I think of Boyce and the picture of a hot air balloon comes to mind! But each to his - or her - own eh!

                    There are still a lot of unanswered questions, and clearly a lot of people forwarding theories - or worse stating so-called facts - that as yet, have no real foundation in science fact.

                    Off for a summer break. Back in a few weeks time.

                    Regards, Farrah

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Farrah Day View Post
                      Interesting post Vrand

                      I'm aware of the Garret Carb, but my reference to William Rhodes was not so much to point out his patents, but more to point out the fact that he seems to have been the first person to do any kind of scientific analysis of the resulting gas.


                      I'm very aware of Boyce and his history - we have a history.

                      Boyce's claims to me have always been (and I daresay always will be) a great area of contention. I am not aware of any independent body that has ever supported or confirmed his claims, or for that matter verified Tesla Longitudinal Energy has anything to do with anything. Certainly Boyce has never explained how this energy actually plays a part in increasing gas production.

                      He has become a cult figure with a fanatical following, but in reality you have to be extremely naive or gullible to believe everything he has claimed in the past. He has been raided by the MIB on numerous occasions and told to stop his research... or suffer the consequences! He has been struck by lightning 3 times, he has been poisoned by fall out from an air force base where he was the only survivor of his group, he has had terminal cancer at least once before and still lives to tell the tale. Of course he has terminal cancer yet again now, due to being microchipped - not once but twice! All very X-files.

                      Oh yes, and he states that Faraday's Laws of electrolysis no longer hold true today - now that really hurts. I think of Boyce and the picture of a hot air balloon comes to mind! But each to his - or her - own eh!

                      There are still a lot of unanswered questions, and clearly a lot of people forwarding theories - or worse stating so-called facts - that as yet, have no real foundation in science fact.

                      Off for a summer break. Back in a few weeks time.

                      Regards, Farrah
                      Hi Farrah,
                      Do you know where the paper or reference/url is to the Dr. Rhodes scientific experiments on his oxy-hydrogen gas? I would enjoy reading it
                      Regards, Mike R,

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by vrand View Post
                        Neither Wiseman's 20 LPM welder unit nor Boyce's 15 LPM from DC input to his 101 plate unit can run an engine, while at the same time powering the cell or additional loads.
                        That is why I said it is different.

                        -George Wiseman claim is 3 watt per liter. Anton cell use 500 watt for 6 lpm, 80 watt per liter. If 80 watt per liter can self sustain, I don't see a reason why 3 watt per liter can not self sustain. I think it is just because he avoid to use it as self supporting system.

                        -Bob Boyce said that the hex controller future is not hho generator. peswiki have article where hex controller used for battery self charging. It is 1000% energy gain TPU system. only 400% if used for hho generator.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by sucahyo View Post
                          That is why I said it is different.

                          -George Wiseman claim is 3 watt per liter. Anton cell use 500 watt for 6 lpm, 80 watt per liter. If 80 watt per liter can self sustain, I don't see a reason why 3 watt per liter can not self sustain. I think it is just because he avoid to use it as self supporting system.

                          -Bob Boyce said that the hex controller future is not hho generator. peswiki have article where hex controller used for battery self charging. It is 1000% energy gain TPU system. only 400% if used for hho generator.
                          Spec's from Anton:

                          Anton

                          € 550.00
                          including VAT
                          excluding shipping costs

                          The A Anton consists of 10 chambers (11 electrodes made of a particularly high-quality stainless steel alloy, Size: 300mm x 150mm).
                          The multi-functional separation elements are more than just simple Seals:
                          From the extremely robust high-tech material Viton ® for injection molding manufacture,
                          give it to the stack Anton equally tailor stability and high reliability.
                          The outer plates are made of sturdy molded polycarbonate.
                          This simple kit Anton is 12 volts or 24 volts operating voltage design (2 x 5 chambers).
                          The dimensions of the finished kit:
                          Width: 350 mm, height: 225mm, Depth: 65mm.
                          Active electrolysis area: 9000 cm ² (= 0.9 m²)
                          For the operation of about 150 watts per liter of gas are required per minute.
                          In normal operations about 3.5 liters of gas per minute can be produced.
                          Short term by increased electrical power can be produced more gas.
                          Watt/hr. per Liter calc:
                          150 watts/L x 3.5L/min. = 525 watts for 3.5L/min.
                          3.5L/min. x 60 min./hr. = 210L/hr.
                          525 watts/210L/hr. = 2.5 Wh/L

                          The Anton cell at 2.5 Wh/L is lower electrical energy input into the cells than the Eagle Research unit at 3 Wh/L.

                          The questions remain:

                          - How does the Anton cell self-run a 2.5 HP engine on 6 LPM?
                          - Why can't other HHO cells that make 6 to 20 LPM do the same?

                          Regards, Mike R.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            @FarrahDay
                            Oh yes, and he states that Faraday's Laws of electrolysis no longer hold true today - now that really hurts. I think of Boyce and the picture of a hot air balloon comes to mind! But each to his - or her - own eh!
                            There are still a lot of unanswered questions, and clearly a lot of people forwarding theories - or worse stating so-called facts - that as yet, have no real foundation in science fact.
                            Contrary to popular opinion, Science-(The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena) is not always correct nor the truth. The fact that science is always changing and evolving is proof of this, so what exactly are you referring to when stating "scientific fact"?. You are referring to little more than the popular opinion of groups of individuals(the scientific community), each having their own opinions. As well you will notice that by definition science is a theoretical explanation, not a fact nor the truth, because a fact or truth cannot change it is universal yet science does which is odd is it not? Please do not treat nor refer to "science" as some kind of self-reinforcing religion beyond reproach as it is a disservice to every person involved in the process of scientific discovery.
                            Regards
                            AC

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by vrand View Post
                              The Anton cell at 2.5 Wh/L is lower electrical energy input into the cells than the Eagle Research unit at 3 Wh/L.
                              Thanks for the correction .

                              I wonder if there is another untold trick for that too..

                              Comment

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