Hydroxy, Oxyhydrogen, Rhode’s Gas, Brown’s Gas, HHO…?

[Farrah Day]

Hi Mike

That Power Point presentation is worth its weight in gold when it comes to summing up what we know and what we don't know. It brings together nicely all the issues we have about the gases.

I for one am leaning toward Rhode's Gas as being a combination of H2, O2, H, O, and HOH.

Let's face it, the water molecule would be in gaseous state if it were not for its bipolar arrangement. It makes a lot of sense then that adding energy could possibly alter the angle of hydrogen bonding to a point whereby it is far less likely to cluster. Afterall, it's only due to the clustering effect created by the hydrogen bonding that it remains liquid in the first place.

But then you have to ask, what role would a water molecule play during the combustion process. We know water is great for absorbing heat, but we must assume that the new form of water molecule is already energised greater than normal.

All very interesting stuff. I hope Eckman continues his work in this area.

Farrah

[aljhoa]

The document many information usefull for anyone wish to use hydrogen for fuel . Unfortunately I have to agree to that it do not contain comparison of H&O vs HHO

Figure 24 shows that Hydrogen & Oxygen without Air detonate with pressure waves a lot faster than gasoline flame front or piston speed therefore, IN ABSENCE OF AIR THESE GASES WILL NOT PUSH THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION PISTON. However, humid air or combustion byproducts under high-pressure (Comp. Ratio = 8 or higher) and temperature of plasma arc (also eroding electrodes), like catalytic petroleum cracking, should crate another form of fuel from Nitrogen, Hydrogen, Oxygen and always present water vapor.
Al

[Farrah Day]

Of course, a simple explanation might be that Rhode's gas simply contains a good proportion of regular water vapour that, in this particular environment, finds it difficult to cluster and so form into liquid state. We have to consider that in gaseous state, molecules and atoms are very much further apart than in liquid state.

After all, much of the air we breathe contains water vapour. Just see how much water a dehumidifier can pull out of the air.

It seems quite obvious that any electrolyser will produce a certain amount of water vapour that will become mixed with evolving hydrogen and oxygen.

Maybe we are simply over-complicating things!

Farrah

[vrand]

The Chris Eckman mass gas analyzer graph shows some interesting properties of the gas.

From his paper:
http://www.worldsci.org/pdf/abstract...racts_5440.pdf

Figure 4 shows a break down of the elements and molecules
Brown’s Gas. There are four main peaks above 30 thousand
articles present in the test; these peaks are the basis of Brown’s
as. The first peak (from left to right) is diatomic hydrogen and
found in abundant amounts in the Brown’s Gas mixture.
here are two peaks due to the fact that there were isotopes of
ydrogen in the test sample. The next major peak is water vapor,
is normally would be undesired because it would take from the
nergy of the gas, but it is needed to form the Rydberg clusters.
herefore the water in Brown’s Gas is needed to help increase the
nergy density of the gas. There are two peaks here because
ere are isotopes in the water as well.
The third peak is the one that was deemed unidentified by the
st, but it is proposed that this is the linear water isotope,
cause it contains the weight of water with a few extra
ectrons. If this is the linear water molecule, than it is only
aking up about 3 to 12% of the total gas. It would not form if
ere were no Rydberg clusters present! It needs the other gases
make it stable as seen in figure 3. The fourth peak is the
atomic oxygen. This is less then what would be expected in
ormal electrolysis, but is normal in Brown’s Gas.

Eckman noted the 4 major gas peak compositions.



To the far right are heaver atoms found in the water:

Atomic Mass
56.02 - Iron
63.55 - Copper
90.94 - 2 plastics including PVC (6th-7th largest peaks, higher than the Monatomic Hydrogen)

It looks like the distilled water is leaching out the PVC and the glue that holds the plates in the PVC spacers, that George Wiseman used on this Brown's Gas welder designs.

Ultra pure water, Type I, Regent Grade, is so pure that it must be manufactured then used, not stored, as even the water container will contaminate the water. This property of water is interesting and could explain why some HHO researchers could power car engines while others could not.

Which Type of Reagent Grade Water do I Need?
Which type of reagent grade water do I need?

While many analytical procedures and instruments specify the type of reagent grade water that is needed (i.e., Type I, Type II, Type III or Type IV), just as many do not. As a “rule of thumb”, Type I Ultrapure water contains dissolved solids at the level of “a few parts per billion”, while Type II and Type III water contains dissolved solids at the level of about “1/ 8 to 1/2 part per million”, and Type IV water contains about 2.5 parts per million of dissolved solids.

Regards, Mike R.

[Farrah Day]

Just wondering if anyone has studied the Chris Eckman 'Brown's Gas' paper that Mike brought to our attention.

http://www.worldsci.org/pdf/abstract...racts_5440.pdf

I ask, because it initially looks like a well thought-out paper, documenting some very good information, but the more I've read it (and I've read and re-read it a few times now), the more uneasy I've become.

One thing that has occured to me is that nowhere does he talk about the ionisation of water into H+ and OH-. This seems a little odd to me given that this is scientifically accepted as being how the water molecule dissociates when energy is absorbed by it.

This is why if too much energy is pressed into water it will
break into hydrogen and oxygen.

He seems to be assuming that adding energy causes the water molecule to break into 2H and O?

The reason that some of the water molecules gets "stuck" in a
linear form and do not break down in to hydrogen and oxygen is
because the water isomer gets surrounded by hydrogen ions,
oxygen ions and water vapor.

Where is he getting oxygen ions from? And where have his hydrogen ions suddenly appeared from?

Strange, I see absolutely no mention of the hydroxyl ion in his paper! No suggestion that charges are being carried through the liquid medium by H+, H3O+ or OH-. How very odd!

Normally monatomic
hydrogen and oxygen would bond right away to form H2 and O2,
but it does not in Brown’s Gas, they remain ions.

Remain ions? They might remain atoms, but not ions?

Only small issues, but as soon as I find inaccuracies or inconsistencies in what my otherwise be deemed as a credible and insightful paper, I start to doubt the accuracy of everything else therein.

This paper also stresses the fact that one thing is abundantly
clear: Brown’s Gas is ELECTRICAL in nature, not chemical!

I'm not entirely convinced that there is any kind of argument here, as all chemical reactions tend to be electrochemical in nature.

[HairBear]

Remain ions? They might remain atoms, but not ions?

What makes you say that? Why can't ions stay ions in a controlled environment?

[Farrah Day]

What makes you say that? Why can't ions stay ions in a controlled environment?

It's a contradiction in terms. He talks about monatomic (atomic) hydrogen and oxygen normally bonding immediately to form molecules, but they are by then atoms, not ions.

Any resulting atomic gas is a true atom, not an ion. The H+ will have picked up it's electron at the cathode to evolve as a neutral hydrogen atom... not an ion. H+ is bonded quite strongly to water molecules to form the hydronium ion H3O+, so the H+ does not evolve from the liquid until it picks up an electron from the cathode, at which stage the H+ becomes H and can evolve as gas.

Hence the contradiction... and my unease.

[HairBear]

OK, I see what you are saying now. Thank you.

[kcarring]

That is why I said it is different.

-George Wiseman claim is 3 watt per liter. Anton cell use 500 watt for 6 lpm, 80 watt per liter. If 80 watt per liter can self sustain, I don't see a reason why 3 watt per liter can not self sustain. I think it is just because he avoid to use it as self supporting system.

Have you read George's latest revision of Brown's Gas book? I bought it, it's very interesting, there are some interesting small points that George makes in it.

Design:

George never places his plates closer than 3/8" together, which in itself is odd, and against the norm. He also claims that when he purchased expensive clear PVC to make his electrolyser, he noticed that bubbles are produced at the plates, but also a stream of bubbles are produced right in the middle, and not at the metal surface, which is indeed odd.

George's electrolysers have no holes through the plates for fluid exchange and equalization, only very very small tolerance deviations between the spacers, and he never lets the fluid "flow over the top". (same as Bob Boyce).
Very few dry cells out there employ this technique - and there is more - both Bob Boyce and George Wiseman cells are refilled from the top tube by way of gravity, not "plugged in".

The difference? Absolutely ZERO current leakage except that which somehow sneaks in between the spacing plates. Bob Boyce's design went as far as to cut grooves in the side plates of walls.

So what are some differences of Bob's and Georges's? (aside from electronics). Bob's is square, and George's is round. Take a close look at both in operation and you might notice the bottom corners "less active" in a square design. A round shape has no corners and thus removes these typically noted "dead zones" (as reported by HHO enthusiasts). Different from all other HHO devices is also that Bob's and Georges cells, given that they are fed from above, and the fluid drops by way of gravity... into each cell space, individually... there is no current loss by way of the "feed" tubes as there is in all other designs.

As well, in normal dry cells, you have the gasket material covering a portion of the stainless steel plate - now - while this does not necessarily? effect the current, as the active portion of the plate is that which is in contact with the electrolyte solution IT DOES play a factor in heat dissipation, and your chances for thermal runaway, all of which effect your production.

George's and Bob's unit's freely allow the gasses formed to rise to the top of plate and enter a "freespace" whereas other models - the gases have to "find the exit hole" and they resist the flow pattern. The more "dead stops" there is for a bubble to leave the system, the longer it takes for the next bubble to have a "location" to born, that is, there is a gaseous "traffic jam".

George does not use Galvanic Isolation Transformers, his unit plans show the unit running hot and wild... no protection from the mains, which while a bit controversial, does offer better efficiency right there. This is something I just put together in my head with Carrol's help today.

George also does not voltage regulate (as far as I remember) and often designs with capacitive limiting and/or voltage doubling.

"For example, at a 4:1 (water to NaOH ratio), my 126 (plate) cell, 10 inch electrolyser needs only a 20 uF on each leg to get 28 DC amps from 240 VAC; but using a 72:1 ration, I'd need 250 uF on each leg to get 28 DC amps, obviously the DC voltage is much higher across the electrolyser with the thing 72:1 electrolyte."

P. 34 Brown's Gas Book 2, (c) George Wiseman


"The Voltage Doubler power supply options allows 240 or more pulses per second, because the bridge rectifier doubles the original 60 cycle (to 120) and the capacitor 'legs' double that 120 to 240 pulses per second. (when capacitance is correct) This is my supply option of choice, at this time"

P. 19 Brown's Gas Book 2, (c) George Wiseman

Here's an interesting quote:

HyperGas | HHOi ?

"I've known for a long time that we MUST get the gas away from the plates as quickly as possible to prevent it from becoming 2H2:O2, due to extra electron activity, it may be that Jimmy (His associate, experimenting with this newer gas - also possibly claimed by FastFreddy) lucked onto the exact conditions needed to achieve harmonic resonance in his electrolyser that actually vibrated the plates themselves... The vibration knocking the bubbles off the plates while they were still just H and O in their very highest energy state"


Most of the HHO community (brute force electrolysis dry cell crowd) scoff at Fast Freddy and even George Wisemans claims. Although I totally respect the guy's work... and I subscribe to his channels and value them greatly, even ZeroFossilFuel and SmartScareCrow, HHOPWR - I think they all think it's hogwash, however - I have never seen any of them employ devices that guarantee the said above conditions. HHOPWR has a new device though, which is very cool and interesting, incorporating magnetics. He's a top researcher, and this new one has nearly no current leakage. He would argue and say "It has NONE" - however I do not fully understand the water infeed and outflow of his design, and that is something I think all these guys are overlooking, except George and Bob. They all have individually done some real cool stuff, that's for sure! ZFF is the only source of pretty much what I believe to be a definitive test of actual gains in an ICE. Other than that he's got zero current leakage.

No one but George insists on 3/8" spacing, yet SmartScarecrow assures me he's tried it and it was worse.

I should add that George Wiseman reports his production in watt-hours thus using a power equation not an energy/volume equation - which is an industrial standard... people miss that.

I will say this, I've got a pretty good HHO drycell that is comparable to any out there if you want to talk about average production. It now runs about 5.4 MMW. It produces the same gas as pretty much everything I've seen in the normal HHO community.

I'm sorry, George's gas IS different. I've used it.

But that's just my opinion!

Some tidbits on HHO.

[kcarring]

- Why can't other HHO cells that make 6 to 20 LPM do the same? Regards, Mike R.

If you watch that video closely, there is small motorcycle battery on the stand. The explanation was, it was used to power additional electronics needed for the genset (controls?). Think about it... if... hypothetically speaking, it was a scam... then...

That battery may have provided the necessary juice for the machine to self run for 8 minutes IF, that bubbler was full of overproof vodka.

The elevator "demo" could have merely been there for smoke and mirrors.

That video offers no assurance anything was accomplished. I'm willing to bet that battery acted as a buffer and when it was drained, demo over.

A very prominent researcher pointed that out to me but I will keep his name out of this. Good points though.

[WeThePeople]

I see the usual topics covered so far,
but a few others seem to be uncovered.

Of the variations/combinations of producable gases,
which can be compressed without self-ignition issues ?

And which ones have a larger atomic size overall,
and can be stored in more conventional storage tanks ?

Both refer to the ability to store the product
in standard vessels without hazards and losses.

We all know Hydrogen is to small
for inexpensive tanks and seeps out...



As example, Ohmasa gas is large enough
to not escape through the storage tank walls,
and can be compressed without self ignition.

I hope this is an important enough topic set
and of reasonable concern to cover too (?).

Reference:
Directory:Ohmasa Gas by Japan Techno Co., Ltd. - PESWiki.

[kcarring]

I see the usual topics covered so far,
but a few others seem to be uncovered.

Of the variations/combinations of producable gases,
which can be compressed without self-ignition issues ?

And which ones have a larger atomic size overall,
and can be stored in more conventional storage tanks ?

Both refer to the ability to store the product
in standard vessels without hazards and losses.

We all know Hydrogen is to small
for inexpensive tanks and seeps out...



As example, Ohmasa gas is large enough
to not escape through the storage tank walls,
and can be compressed without self ignition.

I hope this is an important enough topic set
and of reasonable concern to cover too (?).

Reference:
Directory:Ohmasa Gas by Japan Techno Co., Ltd. - PESWiki.

Indeed that is the magic question!

Freddy claims to be compressing his gas too. Problem is... what is this gas? You've got the entire scientific community ignoring it... and you've got the brute force electrolysis community scoffing at it... saying it doesn't exist, cause they can't find it in their electrolysis product. And then you have, even George saying it only comprises 1-3% of his gas, or brown's gas -total- BUT new developments have yielded higher amounts (still to release techniques).

Obviously I don't have the answer but if one believes in magic, so to speak - it may be that it is the gas which is not so much produced by electrolysis - rather the gas which is produced by transduction or capacitance --- depending how you want to look at it.

All very interesting... in the meantime I am taking the best method I can to do what's known already... and that is, convert my HHO device to an H2 device. H2 is easy to "consume" on the fly as it far more useful than HHO. Also, it can be stored in small amounts, using low tech gear, if a large pressure is not required. Propane tank conversions for example will store it at low pressures, quite adequately. If you can afford it, better yet, as a hydride.

So for now I'm experimenting with using membranes between the cell plates, silk screening cloths and porting for the individual gases, as others are doing, to liberate the gases individually and harness only the H2.

[WeThePeople]

I'm forcing myself to not list names of popular inventers as examples.
because it seems to illicit a reaction to them instead of the idea.

A few of those names would get Farrah aggitated anyway, heheh...

But the ones I had come to mind just now are utilizing
both some form of electrical and mechanical resonance
to achieve unusually high amounts of gas output,
and this quintessential compressible form of this "Gas" mixures.

Be it a piezo transducer in the electrolysis enviroment itself,
or an external mechanical inducer like Ohmasa's using.

My best guess is that there is a very very short period of time
from when the actual unbalance occurs due to seperation's,
and the quick response of nature seeking balance by re-combining.

That moment is when alterations to the inevitable re-combines
can be achived accounting for these various gas end products.

They're going to seek balance by re-combining anyway,
no matter what we do to stop that process ourselves,
if no membrane is present (osmotic electrolysis) to stop it.

Those here that know much more than I will correct me on that...

But if we are to figure out how to detect/measure each of these types,
won't we need to know why they're different in the first place
to know what and how to detect and measure which is which ?

[sucahyo]

So for now I'm experimenting with using membranes between the cell plates, silk screening cloths and porting for the individual gases, as others are doing, to liberate the gases individually and harness only the H2.

I read that a 0.1% O2 in an H2 thank can make it exploded at unpredictable time.


I think delaying electrolysis output use is dangerous. Meyer convert electrolysis output to "gas as safe as gasoline" because of the potent danger of handling electrolysis output.

Saving H2 for later use is very risky from what I read so far. On demand is safer but still risky, or else Meyer would not find a way to mix electrolysis output with ionize air.

[kcarring]

I read that a 0.1% O2 in an H2 thank can make it exploded at unpredictable time.


I think delaying electrolysis output use is dangerous. Meyer convert electrolysis output to "gas as safe as gasoline" because of the potent danger of handling electrolysis output.

Saving H2 for later use is very risky from what I read so far. On demand is safer but still risky, or else Meyer would not find a way to mix electrolysis output with ionize air.

Thanks sucahyo. I'm not at the point of bottling it. I'll remember this comment if i ever get there.