Closed-Loop Electrolyser

[Farrah Day]

Hi Rosie

Well as I said its early days yet and as anticipated it will be the initial ionisation of the water that will be the biggest hurdle to overcome, and I'm currently having to rethink the 15KV coil.

Because the 15KV coil is tough to work with, I'm going to replicate JDs Joule Thief variant cct - which was always the way I was hoping to go anyway. As demoed by JD on video, one of his Joule Thief variant ccts produces a corona discharge, the plasma of which - unlike my 15KV coil - he can actually touch without being thrown across the other side of the room.

From his AV detectors it seems like there is a good amount of radiant energy, which I'm hoping will be absorbed by the water molecules and so induce ionisation.

Though there are going to be numerous technical problems to overcome, I have had my confidence in my CL Electrolyser concept boosted immensely by Woopy on the JT variant thread, as he as good as proves the concept with his little set up - though I doubt anyone would have realised this until I pointed it out.

A busy weekend of building JD's Joule Thief variants.

Farrah

[witsend]

Nice to see high such editorial standards applied. LOL.

Good luck with your tests Farrah.

[Pirate88179]

It's inexplicably Farrah. Why am I not surprised.

[Farrah Day]

Hi Pirate

I see someone finally had the sense to ban IST on the other forum... and it only took 5000 posts of utter nonsense for you guys to realise that he was quite insane!

Farrah

[Pirate88179]

Actually, he was banned like 4 different times but kept coming back. He has a habit of doing that.

Bill

[indra1]

CLOSED-LOOP ELECTROLYSER

Though there appear to be numerous interpretations of how the process of ...

Step 1: ionisation
Step 2: separation of the ionic species ...

Hi Farrah, an improved szpack cell, very interesting approach. Allow me to comment a bit on the setup, please take no offence.

Step 1.
It seems that your setup will produce pulsed HV on the copper coil. I'm pretty sure that this setup will ionize gas phase medium. However, since the nature of the electrolyte being liquid, you should have better ionization using straight DC HV using similar circuit such as Make an ioniser. It is simple and not expensive.

Step 2.
I also have been thinking about the geometry of the setup. Since you have a HV copper coil along the electrolyte medium, I visualize 2 distinct field formation:
a. radial electric field component radiating from center of cylinder inducing radial ion fow parallel to the plates.
b. magnetic field parallel to the axis of the cylinder that tends to form a rotating ion flow path similarly parallel to the plates.
I still have no definite practical design geometry suggestion for this but my general idea of separation is to place an electrode perpendicular to the ion flow. Perhaps a tubular cell with solid tubular inner and mesh type outer gas evolving electrode inside the cylinder with the copper coil HV on the outside like this Make some Ozone setup? Let's discuss about practical build possibility.

Just my 2 cents.

Indrawan

[Farrah Day]

Thanks for your input Indra.

Actually I've already dispensed with the ignition coil as it's electrifying everything - including myself.

I'm now looking to focus the ionisation process with a Joule Thief variant.

Yes the geometry is slightly suspect and it this stage I'm still experimenting. I know what I'm trying to achieve, it's getting it all to gel that is the problem.

I doubt very much that the final proof of concept model will look anything like my P1. I'm not yet going to worry about the practicalities of a build until I've at least achieved a working model.

What is a szpack cell?

[indra1]

Hi Farrah,

I think you miss my point, let me elaborate. A pulsed DC or AC HV source will readily ionize the gas medium or air around the setup with an undesired "electrifying" and dangerous arcs with little or no desired effect which is the ionization of the electrolyte. Compared to gaseus phase, ion movement in liquid electrolyte is very slow so a less than optimum high frequency may prevent ionization, analogous to powering an electrolytic cell with arbitrary high frequency AC.

What I am suggesting is that Stan Meyer built the pulsed DC on an established Faraday pure DC baseline, a working model should be easier to achieve with pure DC HV baseline and improve from there. As we are all aware of, ionization and corona discharge in liquid is still in a dark grey place.

Szpak (sorry for spelling on prev post) refers to Stanislaw Szpak, a researcher for Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center (SPAWAR) Pacific. He published a research paper called SzpakSprecursors.pdf on the Low-Energy Nuclear Reaction (LENR) during late 80 - early 90. It has an electrolytic cell on page 4 which has an intriguingly similar setup as yours without the N electrode.

cheers,

Indrawan

[Farrah Day]

Hi Farrah,

I think you miss my point, let me elaborate. A pulsed DC or AC HV source will readily ionize the gas medium or air around the setup with an undesired "electrifying" and dangerous arcs with little or no desired effect which is the ionization of the electrolyte. Compared to gaseus phase, ion movement in liquid electrolyte is very slow so a less than optimum high frequency may prevent ionization, analogous to powering an electrolytic cell with arbitrary high frequency AC.

What I am suggesting is that Stan Meyer built the pulsed DC on an established Faraday pure DC baseline, a working model should be easier to achieve with pure DC HV baseline and improve from there. As we are all aware of, ionization and corona discharge in liquid is still in a dark grey place.

cheers,

Indrawan

Thanks Indra, but no, I didn't miss the point. I'm already in fact experimenting with moving my pulsing coil into the liquid medium itself in order to try and prevent the unwanted ionisation of the air surrounding the cell. Initial problem is that if using the ignition coil, the water itself acts as an electrode and the PVC container as a dielectric between the HV potential of the water and the outside air. Hence I still receive a shock through the PVC insulation of the container.

This is why I'm now moving on to experimenting with low power JT ccts and looking to tune the cct for maximum ionisation.

As regards Meyer, the problem I see with pulsed HV on an estabilished baseline is that while I can see how the pulsing can increase ionisation, ultimately the current through the system is still a direct drain from the source supply.

In my method I would be using an independent emf to initiate current flow.

I'm also experimenting with diodes across the spark gap.

Still lots of experimenting to undertake... and still much to learn. But at least it's mentally very stimulating.

[indra1]

All right, so do proceed with the JT setup, but in case that you return to the P1 setup, consider protection similar to the one used in the ionizer link on my first post to prevent painfull shocks.

I do believe that a more hollistic woman touch could yield the decisive step to tame the wild cell. Happy experimenting.

[Farrah Day]

Here is another Closed-Loop Electrolyser design, based on recent developments by the Doc, and JD, Woopy and Joule Thief gang.

Imageshack - clele2.jpg - Uploaded by FarrahDay

[gmeast]

Here's the current set up showing the ignition coil.

Farrah.

I haven't read this entire thread but by your picture it looks like you're using some of Stiffler's SEC-style components ... specifically, the copper assembly housed in the wood frame at right in your photo.

Stiffler's big thing now is electrolysis, and it looks like he will be able to produce hydrogen gas sans the oxygen by diffusing off the O2 somehow.

[Farrah Day]

I haven't read this entire thread but by your picture it looks like you're using some of Stiffler's SEC-style components ... specifically, the copper assembly housed in the wood frame at right in your photo.

Stiffler's big thing now is electrolysis, and it looks like he will be able to produce hydrogen gas sans the oxygen by diffusing off the O2 somehow.

No Stiffler SECs here, though I believe the principle is the same. That is inducing the water to ionise.

He isn't diffusing the O2 off. With the diode in the test tube, I think it's very likely that the acidic water is reacting with the tin on the leads. In which case we only get H2 resulting as very small amounts of O2 will readily dissolve in the water.

With inert electrodes we would get both H2 and O2.

Scaling it up will not be that easy, as I'm finding out. We need higher concentrations of EMR when the body of water is increased. Early days though.

[wojwrobel]

massage deleted

[Farrah Day]

Because EMR to induce ionisation of the water will need to be increased to a level to sufficiently penetrate the liquid medium, it follows that power of the pulsing circuitry will need to be stepped-up proportionally. How much this needs to be would depend of course on the volume of water and specific electrolyser design.

However, another interesting facet to the Closed-Loop Electrolyser is that it should be possible to reclaim a great proportion of the energy that is used ionising the water.

This is because unlike in standard electrolysis where we have to overcome the standard electrode potentials to initiate current flow and hence electrolysis, the Closed-Loop Electrolyser electrodes would act in reverse, effectively providing their own potential. Therefore the electrodes in a Closed-Loop Electrolyser effectively become a battery!