Closed-Loop Electrolyser

[Armagdn03]

Quote:
I have noticed that you are winding your secondaries close inter-winding proximity giving you large parasitic capacitance within the coil. Problem is that your electrolyser is acting as a capacitive element. You may have 70% or so of your capacity contained within your coil. This means that each inductive discharge of your coil will only place 30% or so of your energy into your electrolyser, and the remaining will discharge into the parasitic interwinding capacitance.
Quote:

FarrahDay,

Now you see why I was trying to test the coils for capacitance...we know what our cell is for "capacitance"...I probably misspoke myself on the video, nothing new for me, my wife tells me that all the time, and of COURSE she is NEVER wrong...(I'm well trained).

Inductance is only one part of the "issue", when I have the solution, or balance I will post it....close, but no cigar as of yet....

@Armagdn03, if you are the same one in WI then thanks again for the discussion and your videos...they gave me the idea to try and balance the coil and cell as one complete "capacitor" and then work on the inductance issues etc.


Thanks again...

Bob Potchen

I am indeed the same one, don't hesitate to shoot me an email sometime if you have any other questions.

[Farrah Day]

What nature of water are u using Farrah Day?

I've tried tap, de-ionised and de-ionised with NaSO4 added. All work to lesser or greater degrees.

Well, I've just tried a variation of my proof of concept Closed-Loop Electrolyser using a car ignition coil, with an AV plug to earth and guess what... it works as well as (if not better than) my mini Tesla coil set up!

Producing gas from ss electrodes connected to an earthed AV Plug at anything from 1KHz - 6KHz.

Imageshack - picture192f.jpg - Uploaded by FarrahDay

Edit: Incidentally as opposed to the sinewave I've been seeing with the mini Tesla set up, this was a square wave output - I checked on my scope

[TheCell]

I am indeed the same one, don't hesitate to shoot me an email sometime if you have any other questions.

I will when I get back from our testing... We just finished in Chicago testing of an SAE test...tough test... but we were able to obtain 23% CERTIFIED results here in the good ol USA...Finally...we had been waiting for almost 8 months to get in there, with a Cummins ISX 450HP 15 Liter engine...

Bob Potchen

Ps sorry if this posted multiple times...network acting up

[TheCell]

I've tried tap, de-ionised and de-ionised with NaSO4 added. All work to lesser or greater degrees.

Well, I've just tried a variation of my proof of concept Closed-Loop Electrolyser using a car ignition coil, with an AV plug to earth and guess what... it works as well as (if not better than) my mini Tesla coil set up!

Producing gas from ss electrodes connected to an earthed AV Plug at anything from 1KHz - 6KHz.

Imageshack - picture192f.jpg - Uploaded by FarrahDay

Edit: Incidentally as opposed to the sinewave I've been seeing with the mini Tesla set up, this was a square wave output - I checked on my scope

Congrats on that new achievement ....gas and not being knocked about!

I would take it you were using DC into the ignition coil...or not?

I will try with our larger coil to see if the results vary....any luck with your larger coil? If not the offer still stands...but I would suggest probably a 30 to 36 awg wire...I will be winding a 36 by friday. It seemed vary easy to "tune (somewhat)...with some pretty decent plasma output as the measure of success.

Thanks for the updates....

Bob Potchen

[Farrah Day]

Hi Bob

I was using a basic 555 timer cct to pulse the ignition coil. I can produce good plasma with this, but the current draw goes up considerably... and it bloody shocks the hell out of me. But not if I've got an AV Plug to earth.

What cct are you using to get the plasma from your large coils?

[TheCell]

Hi Bob

I was using a basic 555 timer cct to pulse the ignition coil. I can produce good plasma with this, but the current draw goes up considerably... and it bloody shocks the hell out of me. But not if I've got an AV Plug to earth.

What cct are you using to get the plasma from your large coils?

Farrah,

The Slayer007...if you need it I can provide.

Bob Potchen

[Armagdn03]

I have no idea what methodology you are using for your resonance testing, I saw the posting of one website, but....

The most important thing to remember in this phase of testing, is to view the device as a single instrument. The primary, the secondary and the cell and the electronic generator are one and the same. Any change in any part of any of it will change your resonant frequency.

This means that while you may measure your secondary to have resonant point X, as soon as you add your primary into the mix, it is no longer X. This can be very frustrating unless you take it into consideration. I would suggest the following method for testing resonance points, and this is more in line with what DR Stiffler does to find spacial resonance, and what I do to find measurements in my you-tube account Tortuga0303.

For example, many people tune their primary, then tune their secondary, then marry the two afterward....this is not a good strategy.

Also remember that you may have a resonant structure, all components integrated, which has a resonant frequency, but since the components are not well matched within the system, the Q is not nearly as high as it could be. So you need to tune the components individually, while they are integrated in the system....not an easy requirement, and takes some bench time and ingenuity.

Another thing to try and consider, might be the opposite of the AV plug, where you have two diodes cathode to cathode. Then place a second coil in parallel with your cell, and hook the diodes up. If the resonant frequency of this tank is 1/2 that of the driving coil, you can parametrically pump it. (the diodes act as electrically controlled variable capacitors).

I have many many ideas in this area and do not have the time currently to follow, so I am interestedly following your thread!

[Armagdn03]

P.S. it may be interesting to try cell arrangements which have as little capacitance as possible, so that they play a minimal role in the the parameters of the system (i.e. capacitance and inductance) and are viewed to be more on the side of a resistive impedance. One might try an array of needles pointing towards each other for cathode and anode.

[Farrah Day]

Thanks Bob, but it's ok, I was just curious.

I'm using the same but with a 2N3053 transistor.

I've got a few things niggling me at the moment, obstacles I need to overcome before I can move on. I'm hoping I can think my way over and forward.

[Farrah Day]

I have no idea what methodology you are using for your resonance testing, I saw the posting of one website, but....

The most important thing to remember in this phase of testing, is to view the device as a single instrument. The primary, the secondary and the cell and the electronic generator are one and the same. Any change in any part of any of it will change your resonant frequency.

This means that while you may measure your secondary to have resonant point X, as soon as you add your primary into the mix, it is no longer X. This can be very frustrating unless you take it into consideration. I would suggest the following method for testing resonance points, and this is more in line with what DR Stiffler does to find spacial resonance, and what I do to find measurements in my you-tube account Tortuga0303.

For example, many people tune their primary, then tune their secondary, then marry the two afterward....this is not a good strategy.

Also remember that you may have a resonant structure, all components integrated, which has a resonant frequency, but since the components are not well matched within the system, the Q is not nearly as high as it could be. So you need to tune the components individually, while they are integrated in the system....not an easy requirement, and takes some bench time and ingenuity.

Another thing to try and consider, might be the opposite of the AV plug, where you have two diodes cathode to cathode. Then place a second coil in parallel with your cell, and hook the diodes up. If the resonant frequency of this tank is 1/2 that of the driving coil, you can parametrically pump it. (the diodes act as electrically controlled variable capacitors).

I have many many ideas in this area and do not have the time currently to follow, so I am interestedly following your thread!

Thanks for your input A3. I'll bear in mind what you have said.

The tuning can be very hit and miss as the whole set up seems very susceptible to nearby objects. Even my proximity affects the frequency output of the mini Tesla set ups. If I run my hand up and down the secondary coil, the frequency can go from 427KHz to over 1.5MHz!

[TheCell]

Thanks Bob, but it's ok, I was just curious.

I'm using the same but with a 2N3053 transistor.

I've got a few things niggling me at the moment, obstacles I need to overcome before I can move on. I'm hoping I can think my way over and forward.

Farrah Day,

Based on your previous patterns of thought (your posts), you will overcome!

One note,....When I tried the different transistors, about 10 of them, The one that gave the best "Plasma" and field around the coil, was the MPSA06....the biggest problem I had with them was me....I tried pushing them past the 350 ma range in 62 cases and they blew....but I simply had bought 100 of them for initial testing. The tuning issue is quite complex as you and I have both found out....my Luck paid off on the 30 awg wire by having the secondary coil wrapped around a larger pvc pipe and simply unwrapping the secondary coil while I watched the ma draw on the meter....crude, but effective. The reason I showed the capacitance is, as was stated earlier by Armagdn03, we are trying to use the cell and the coil as "one" capacitor and tuning to that as one "unit". So far it seems to be working as we are able to tune them...but remember, we have fluid under constant compression in the cell, similar to a real capacitor, so that gives us a distinct advantage of stability. We also have a field prebuilt in to our material as it contains a CU derivative to dissipate heat...this by happenstance worked in our favor as the field is continuous around The Cell.

Hope that gives some insight...

Bob Potchen

[Farrah Day]

Ok, it's been a while since I've posted here, but works on-going.

I was side-tracked a little by Stiffler's hydrogen producing diode demonstration, and thought that I needed to investigate that further before I continued on my path in the event that I could effectively take a short cut.

Well it seems not. The science behind the diode and indeed AV plugs evolving hydrogen is fairly straight-forward, but to enhance the effect is not quite so easy.

I believe the diodes are effectively acting like the old crystal radio sets or cat's whisker radio sets. A crystal radio set did not require external power, but simply used a diode to rectify the incoming signal. The only power came via the radio wave itself.

This I think is what we are seeing with the diodes, LEDs and AV plugs in the water.

Clearly hydrogen is being evolved at the anode leg, while the tin on the cathode leg reacts with the hydroxyl ion to form and oxide. If inert electrodes are attached to the diode (or AV plug) legs then hydrogen and oxygen are formed just as in normal electrolysis.

Initially I thought that increasing the size of the electrodes would allow for more charge exchanging, more current flow, and hence more gas production, but I found this not to be the case. In fact it made no difference whatsoever. Adding sodium sulphate as an electrolyte, did improve things marginally, but nothing like when you dope an electrolyser and see the gas suddenly pour off.

Why?

I think because current is not flowing through the water (or electrolyte) itself. What I think is happening is that the diode is rectifying the signal from the coil and in doing so is producing a voltage across itself, just like a crystal radio. Any H+ or OH- ions in the water next to the diode legs will act exactly the same as those near the plates of an electrolyser and give up or take on charges. But the key think is that this set up is relying on the tiny proportion of self-ionisation occuring in the water, and the tiny current is just flowing through the diode/s.

I'm not through experimenting yet, and may well be wrong, but that's certainly the conclusion my experiments seem to be heading towards. Stiffler was using his high frequency SECs, but I am back to using a squarewave pulsed car ignition coil, which shows results perfectly well at all frequencies within the limits of the current cct. 3KHz - 150KHz.

Imageshack - avplug4.jpg - Uploaded by FarrahDay

More to come.

[RAMSET]

Farrah Day
Thank you for sharing your hard work and expertise!
I noticed you had some input with the Chris Hunter Magnetrolysis
Thread at OU power,dealing with high freq ,pulse and heavy Gauss
in an extremely caustic electrolyte.

Do you feel there is any merit in Chris Hunter's claim,

5 watts 5 minutes 5700 liters HHO?

Your input would be greatly appreciated!

Chet

[Farrah Day]

Hi Chet

I think Oswald is likely to be Alaskastar... or perhaps just his virtual twin out for a bit of fun.

With reference to my previous debates with Alaskastar some time ago on the OUPower forum (where long ago I suddenly found I could no longer post), I don't see anything different in Oswald's posts.

OUPower.com :: View topic - Magnetic Hydrogen Electrolyzer

One question: If it's so simple why have you (or anyone else) not yet replicated it? I mean the thread is over 20 pages long now.

Afterall it's just a coil of wire wrapped around a tube with a saturated solution of sodium hydroxide in it, pulsed by a PWM.

I did replicate Alaskastars version, and got absolutely nothing. His science was flawed in the extreme and though he said he would do so, for some reason he never replicated his super-efficient magnetolyser again. You have to ask yourself why.

Why hasn't Oswald replicated it and put it on you-tube?

As per usual, some things just don't add up or ring true and hence immediately give rise to suspicion and scepiticsm. At least that's how it works for me.

What more can I say, other than I'm looking forward to seeing Oswalds demonstration on you-tube. Though I won't be holding my breath while I wait!

[RAMSET]

Farrah Day
Thank you for the responce!

I spoke on the phone With Chris Hunter several weeks ago,
He said he would build "one" device and send it to a member of the Forum as "Proof"![if we couldn't accomplish it ourselves]

I have not requested this from him ,as their have been very few posted attempts at replication.
Perhaps you can post you're experience?

Chet