Closed-Loop Electrolyser

[Farrah Day]

Farrah,

This relatively new patent published 6/17/2010 for electrochemical energy storage and discharge is very much inline with your hypothesis.
WO/2010/066025

Yeah, iq, that's basically a slightly varied approach to my concept and what I'm doing. Pulling apart the ions inherent in water with an electric field then using those ions via a conductive bridge.

The stumbling block I'm finding is in trying to induce a greater ionisation of the water, as there seems to be only a relatively small percentage of OH- and H3O+ ions in any given body of water at any given time.

Edit: Incidentally iq, you will find that these concepts closely relate to the science behind 'Lord Kelvins water dropper generator'.

[iquant]

How about introducing some type of vortex flow to your solution?
Simple stirring or an aquarium type recirculating pump... Maybe something like:
Recirculating-Vortex-Water-Fountain.

[iquant]

Isn't the dropper's gain from gravity?

Edit: Incidentally iq, you will find that these concepts closely relate to the science behind 'Lord Kelvins water dropper generator'.

[Farrah Day]

Isn't the dropper's gain from gravity?

Gravity certainly plays its part, but the interesting thing is what creates the charge separation. Anything that does not rely on gravity will need to be slightly more inventive.

But it is quite amazing just how much charge the Kelvin water dropper can create in a very short time.

Take a look at this if you've not already seen it.

YouTube - Walter Lewin Makes a Battery out of Cans and Water

[dutchy1966]

Patent WO2010/066025A1

Farrah,

This relatively new patent published 6/17/2010 for electrochemical energy storage and discharge is very much inline with your hypothesis.
WO/2010/066025

on: Today at 07:02:25 PM
This is how it's done in the WO 2010/066025A1 patent:

Step 1 Electrolyte

100% saturated solution NaOH + H2O becomes:

Na+ + OH- + H2O


Step 2 Ionic sepearation

Either by EHD (electric), MHD (magnetic) or membrame technologies

(mono ionic) Na+
and
(mono ionic) OH-

into separated tanks!


Step 3 Electric charge exchange

By way of an electric connection between the two mono ionic solutions,
free electricity can be taken from the system.

At the same time at the teminals in the ionic solutions the following reactions take place:

terminal 1: 4OH- - 4e- = 2H2O + O2(gas) (hydroxyl is oxidezed to oxygen and water)

terminal 2: 4Na+ + 4e- = 4Na (Cations are reduced to neutral atoms)

4Na + 4 H2O = 4NaOH + 2H2(gas)

Ok so now we have (again!) NaOH + H2O ready to become electrolyte as in step 1 !


Step 4 Burn baby burn......

2H2 + O2 ready to be burned and give us lots of heat and water to refill the tank.

Seems all very straightforward and promising!!


So,
If we compare this to Alaska star's description the only difference seems to be the separation of the ionic species in step 2.
Therefore it would be fair to ask ourselfs if it is necessary to split the anions and cations in two separate tanks.

As I've have mentioned before, when we send a unidirectional (pulsating or not) magnetic field through the electrolyte the ions will get seperated in side the tank.
Lorentz forces will push them in different directions, the result is something like this:

Na+ Na+ H2O H2O H2O OH- OH-
Na+ Na+ H2O H2O H2O OH- OH-
Na+ Na+ H2O H2O H2O OH- OH-
Na+ Na+ H2O H2O H2O OH- OH-
Na+ Na+ H2O H2O H2O OH- OH-
Na+ Na+ H2O H2O H2O OH- OH-
| |
|_______ LOAD __________|


Wouldn't it then be possible to just put the terminals in the solution so that we get:
1 - current through a load
2 - 2H2 gas
3 - O2 gas
4 - Heat (exothermic reaction)


I always learned that as it seems to good to be true...it probably is.
So tell what is wrong with the above.....

[RAMSET]

HHMMmmmm................
Chet

[Farrah Day]

Tad, I brought this over here, in case you were unaware of my current experiments, which - given the years and money you spent on Meyer - I believe will interest you.

I used distilled water always. Never tried any electrolytes because I didn't want electrolysis. It's been more than a decade since I did these tests, but I will try to remember the components. The driving circuit was a simple 12V-600V inverter. Off the shelf unit from Fry's electronics. It used a small ferrox cube core transformer. It ran in the 20 Khz range if I remember correctly. I modified the oscillator portion to run at around 40Khz and used a multiplier on the output to get 1200V. Cell was in the low nanofarad range. I used two ferrite cored chokes just like Stan had in the simple setup.

Electrodes were 400 series stainless I got from an aircraft salvage store. The man told me they were 421 stainless tubes. I had never heard of such an alloy but that's what he said they were.

Startup of the cell was tough because you have to have enough current to get the cell charged, but the current needs to drop eventually before you burn out the transformer. The cell leaks energy very rapidly, or at least in my case it did. This is one of the reasons it took me so long to replicate because I had to keep playing with the circuit until I saw maximum power supply voltage across the cell. But even then in between pulses the cell voltage was dropping rapidly, not like a normal capacitor.

Most of the attempts at replication by others also had this problem as well. You need enough current to get the process started but once the cell is charged and step charging properly, then you can back off the duty cycle, or the amount of pulses being sent to the cell.

I might play with another cell sometime in the future but when I remember all I went through back then, it leaves me thinking that I would rather not

Tad

Basically, whereas you were pulling your hair out trying to get your electrodes to provide a high voltage pulse while also maintaining a DC potential, and trying to use the WFC itself as part of an LC circuit, I have simply separated the two elements.

By building an LC arragement independendtly of the WFC itself, it is much easier to tune to maximum voltage (resonance), and have a separate DC potential on the WFC electrodes.

The pulsing coil of the independent LC arrangement will do the same as the high voltage pulses on the electrodes of the standard arrangement, ie, create a pulsing electric field that induces ionisation.

Why no one has done this before I think is down to the fact that no one has ever been able to explain the science or indeed really understood what is happening in Meyer-like WFCs. But once we accept that it is the electric field produced by high voltage pulses that is greatly inducing ionisation of the water, then the real picture begins to form.

Tad, do you see what I'm getting at?

[lamare]

Tad, I brought this over here, in case you were unaware of my current experiments, which - given the years and money you spent on Meyer - I believe will interest you.

Tads original comment can be found here:

I used distilled water always. [...]

I have uploaded Eccles patent here:
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Patents/WFCNewProcess.pdf

[iquant]

Well this may be worth revisiting:

Japanese Company: Fukai is using Aluminum and/or Magnesium as a catalyst for producing Hydrogen. Nice Video here: Fukai

They boil what they call "Functional Water" with aluminum powder as a catalyst and it is allegedly releasing 2 liters of hydrogen per gram of aluminum.

Their "functional water" is produced by passing tap water through an apparatus that contains natural minerals.

My guess is its some type of NaOH solution. I Don't believe they are using any electrolysis... just heat and the catalyst.

[RAMSET]

HEY!!
Whats up with Faraday??
Where is she ?

Chet

[RAMSET]

Farrah
Where are you!!



Did these Guys get you?

[RAMSET]

Farrah
You have to see this!!

DISSOCIATION OF THE WATER MOLECULE
Chet

[RAMSET]

I love this Woman


From Farrah
PRICELESS!!

Here: DISSOCIATION OF THE WATER MOLECULE



December 2010

The limitations of standard Faraday Electrolysis should be quite obvious to anyone and everyone that has taken the trouble to read and understand Faraday’s Laws of Electrolysis. After all, they couldn’t be much simpler. The amount of gases evolved under standard Faraday Electrolysis, is - and will always be - governed by the current through the cell/electrolyser. Even if we keep the voltage to the realistic optimum of around 2 volts per cell to initiate and maintain electrolysis, then we are still always limited by the current that can be drawn through the cell at this voltage. With the power dissipated equal to, P = V x I, or P = 2V x I, even at just two volts the high current required produces lots of wasted energy in the form of heat. Under these conditions, the current needed to produce enough gas to run an ICE becomes enormous, and indeed impossible to provide continuously via an on-demand vehicle system.

To electrolyse 1 litre of water (under ideal conditions of around 1.3 volts and 100% efficiency) requires 3.658kW of power per hour. Which, at 1.3 volts, equates to 2814 amps! This would provide 2038 litres of oxyhydrogen.

Now if you check out this link you will see where the problems lie:

YouTube - HYDROGEN - 524 LITERS PER MINUTE

This emphasises the very real limitations of so-called brute force, Faraday Electrolysis.

So, is there another way?

Well, it has been proven that for the same amount of power, Plasma Discharge Electrolysis produces more combustible gases than Faraday Electrolysis. I say, ‘combustible gases’, because the high temperatures created by plasma discharges do not just involve the creation of radical species H+ and OH-, but also OH2 and O, reacting to form not only hydrogen and oxygen, but also highly combustible hydrogen peroxide H2O2.

If you are aware of the work done by Dave Lawton, who was himself active on forums a few years back, you will know that he claimed to be achieving 3 – 4 times more gas evolution from his Meyer-like electrolyser than Faraday’s Electrolysis Laws state was possible. Of course Faraday’s Laws of Electrolysis were not at fault and still completely valid, so there had to be something else happening too. Back then there was much theorising, much controversy, and of course much wild speculation. But now, a few years on, things look a little different and the pieces of the puzzle are starting to fit nicely to show us glimpses of the big picture.

One thing that was a feature of Dave Lawton’s electrolyser design was that the tubular electrodes were ‘conditioned’. Conditioning is a term that is banded about quite a lot. For a long time it was considered a mysterious process, creating much speculation and debate, and indeed seen by some as a bit of a dark art. The problem was, that no one really knew what it was all about - how or why it apparently increased efficiency of the electrolyser - or indeed if it served any real purpose at all.

Further complications arise from the fact there seems to be two types of conditioning of the electrodes, or rather two interpretations. The first is that running an electrolyser at a low current for a few hours, allows iron in the surface of the electrodes to ‘leach’ out. That is, any microscopic areas of iron on the surface of the stainless steel electrodes, under working conditions will react with the oxygen being created to form rust. Now obviously if we are losing oxygen to the iron to form an oxide, then we evolve less oxygen as a gas, so certainly this will be seen as a reduction in gas output. When this iron reacts to form rust it usually leaves the surface of the SS electrodes to become a precipitate in the solution, and the chromium in the SS quickly acts to form a protective oxide coating. Once all the microscopic iron has been reacted, the chromium oxide coating on the SS surface does its job and prevents further reaction. So this form of condition makes sense and indeed is good practice.

However, Dave Lawton’s electrode conditioning goes a step further. By using hard water (that is water high in minerals) or indeed doping water with minerals, he built up a visible mineral coating, which consisted mainly of calcium carbonate, or scale. Water that is filtered through limestone is very mineral rich and ideal for producing this coating. But what does it do?

Well at the time, as I mentioned above, it was a mystery. But not so now.

Dave Lawton claimed that his cells appeared to glow slightly in the dark, producing some kind of luminescence. At the time, though interesting, not too much was made of this and little investigation or indeed real consideration was given to this phenomenon.

The interesting thing about this mineral coating was that, although it did not conduct electricity, having a non-measurable resistance on a digital multimeter and so effectively a great insulator, it was actually very porous.

What I know now, that no one realised at the time was that the luminescence was due to microscopic PLASMA DISCHARGES within the microscopic cavities of this porous mineral coating. And any apparent over-Faraday results were likely due to this phenomenon.

Now, CAVITATION produces similar results to plasma discharges in water due to the high temperatures and pressures created on a microscopic level but, unlike plasma discharges which are created by high currents, cavitation is induced mechanically by physical vibration.

So here’s the thing. Why not introduce all these elements into an electrolyser in order to – if possible – increase overall efficiency.

So here’s my idea: The Hybrid Electrolyser

An electrolyser that uses elements of Faraday Electrolysis, Plasma Discharge Electrolysis and Cavitation.

I’m currently designing and fabricating, but the current freezing cold spell is hampering me somewhat. However, I’ve attached a couple of my initial designs in order that you can see where I’m going with this.

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Farrah

It's what you learn after you think you know it all that really counts

[HairBear]

Love is blind, Chet, love is blind...

She refuses to accept the written and spoken words of Stan Meyer, yet, fully accepts as gospel, the men whom have attempted to replicate Meyer's works based on Meyer's documentation. It's like claiming to be a christian without the recognition of Christ. What gives Farrah?