Stan Meyers Secret, Preventing Electrolysis.

[HMS-776]

Preventing Electrolysis allows voltage to take over and split water in a purely physical process.

The water molecule is a polar molecule. Chemical polarity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Since it is a polar molecule we know that electric fields can cause it to move or rotate . This is how microwaves work to heat food. Microwave oven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Electrolysis is a chemical process in which electrons flow from one plate through the water and to the other plate(s). Electrolysis of water - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Stan Meyer's patent # 4,798,661 he explains:
"The above described process is apparently not a chemical reaction process such as in Faraday's Laws"

I don't want to give others the wrong information so I have deleted much of this post.

[lamare]

You may want to take a look at this thread:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...et-effect.html

Interestingly, normal electrolytic capacitors have a dielectric layer, which is formed out of aluminum oxide. The interesting thing about a dielectric layer is that it can be polarised, which gives you an electric field as long as the dielectric is polarised.

From there, one can also explain why such a system can seemingly produce energy out of nothing. This is simply being converted by the dielectricum as explained by Prof. Turtur as I posted here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post78805

[Slovenia]

Thanks

HMS,

Thanks for sharing this information. Good to see you posting again!!

Best Regards,
Slovenia

[HairBear]

Very nice theories and ideas, but I have to disagree that any of it as considered related to Stan Meyer or even that there is a secret. There is no need for a "dielectric layer" when you can simply break the conductive path by atomizing the water and mixing it with ambient air.

The basic electrical system utilized in the invention is depicted in showing the electrical polarization zone which receives and processes the water and gas mixture as a capacitive circuit element in a resonant charging circuit formed by inductors connected in series with diode, pulsed voltage source, electron sink and the zone/locus formed from conductive elements. In this manner, electrodes in the injector form a capacitor which has electrical characteristics dependent on the dielectric media (e.g., the water mist, ionized gases, and non-combustible gases) introduced between the conductive elements. Within the macro-dielectric media, however, the water molecules themselves, because of their polar nature, can be considered micro-capacitors.

The polar nature of the water molecule which facilitates the formation of minute droplets in the mist appears to cause a relationship between the droplet size and the voltage required to effect the process, i.e., the greater the droplet size, the higher the voltage required.

[Armagdn03]

I have done a simple, and remarkable experiment in this field, I will re-create, film and upload it shortly. The implications are huge. I dont think people will be disappointed. I call it the Cross Field Capacitor.

[sucahyo]

Missing detail

HMS-776, what kind of electronic circuit that you propose? How many output volts and current? pulsed? feedback controlled? What kind of feedback?

When dielectric break happen, isn't this means the failure of insulation? how do we keep restoring them?

[tutanka]

electrons and state of water

Hello HMS...

You wrote: If electrons are passing through the water the result is always electrolysis. It does not matter if you pulse the plates, add an electrolyte or use plain tap or distilled water. The result is either more or less efficient electrolysis when current is flowing through the water.

Yes .. that is true!!!

But ....is also important understand that is more important work on state of water.. you increase a lot the efficency passing from liquid water to water vapour, for that Meyer have updated water system using that solution.

[sucahyo]

The requirement is basic, but requires knowledge....You prevent electrolysis (current flow through water) by using an additional dielectric coating on the tubes. And you prevent the charging circuit from shorting out at resonance by adding inductors to have an inductive reactance.

In other word, the electrode is not required to be submerge on water and if the water container is thin it is enough to place it outside of water container?

[lamare]

If you have a resonant charging circuit, charging a tubeset with a dielectric coating and the voltage overcomes the dielectric strength of the coating the result will be current flowing through the water. Or in other words, electrolysis.


The requirement is basic, but requires knowledge....You prevent electrolysis (current flow through water) by using an additional dielectric coating on the tubes. And you prevent the charging circuit from shorting out at resonance by adding inductors to have an inductive reactance.

If you study capacitors you will find the Dissipation Factor is important. Without a dielectric coating the dissipation factor will be very high, meaning you will have current flow through the water, resulting in, once again, electrolysis.


Dissipation factor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The most interesting type of capacitor to study in this regard is the electrolytic capacitor (See for example the links posted here http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post102836 ) for information about how to make thin dielectric layers.

What you are really saying when you talk about preventing electrolysis is that you split water using an electric field instead of an electric current. This patent suggests that this is interely possible:
http://sdch2o.free.fr/vrac/GB%202.32...20R.Eccles.pdf

However, in this patent they are using voltages as high as 25 kV, which is apparantly necessary in order to get an electric field of sufficient strength in between the plates.

That brings me to why an electrolytic capacitor is so interesting. As I posted here http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post78487 , in an electrolytic capacitor the distance between the "plates" is actually very small, because the fluid in between the real plates is not to be considered as a dielectric but as an electrolyte, a conducting fluid. This means that the negative plate is extended trough the fluid such that the negative charge does not reside on the negative plate itself, but inside the fluid very close to the positive plate, namely at the border of the dielectric, non conducting layer that has been formed at the positive plate.

This way, you can get a strong electric field near the positive plate, at low voltages because the distance between the "plates" is very small, in the order of a few micrometer.

Another very interesting feature of dielectrics is that they can be polarised. If you make this polarisation permanent, usually by heating a dielectric material and letting it cool again while in an electric field, you have an electret. In electrolytic capacitors, the polarisation is non-permanent. It fades away after some, usually short, time.

However, this polarisation depends on the strengt of the electric field that is applied to it (across the capacitor "plates"), so it appears to be possible to create a strong polarised dielectric in between the plates of an electrolytic capacitor by applying high voltage pulses to the capacitor. It appears that this way you can polarise the dielectric using very little energy and since it takes a while before the polarisation fades away, you get a window of opportunity to utilise the electric field you just created in your dielectric. Of course, the higher the applied voltage, the longer the polarisation lasts.

As I posted here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post78805 Prof. Turtur then gives you the key into understanding how this process can give you more energy out than you have to put in yourself. The electric field is an energy source:

As far as I can tell, at this moment, the only explanation for the existence of excess energy in any capacitor-like system, be it Bedini's caps and batteries or Meyers fuell cell, is the more than likely existence of a super-polarized dielectricum somewhere between the capacitor plates. It appears that in all these systems electrolytic capacitors are being created, with various qualities, depending on things like the used materials and liquids. However, it is clear that such a polarized dielectricum provides an electric field and that the energy for that comes from the vacuum, as explained by Prof. Turtur: http://www.wbabin.net/physics/turtur1e.pdf (page 10-14).

The key to obtaining this energy source and utilizing it, can be found in Bedini's and Meyers technologies (as well as Stiffler) and the understanding of how an electrolytic capacitor works.

The dielectric layer formed in a normal electrolytic capacitor is very thin, and such that the dielectric breaks down at about 125% of the normal operating voltage. So, normally, the dielectric can never be polarized very strong, because the polarization is induced using a field created by the capacitor plates because of an electron flow from one plate to the other. So, at 125% of the normal operating voltage, the dielectricum shorts out and no further polarization is possible.

However, an electro(-magnetic) field can exist of its own, without need for any charge carriers (electrons). So, if you would polarize the dielectricum with an electro-magnetic or electric field, the maximum polarization possible is no longer bound by the dielectric break-down properties of the dielectric.

What you apparantly get then, is a super-polarized dielectricum in between capacitor plates and an electrolyte, which creates an electric field that is much stronger than the field created by the capacitor plates. Since under normal circumstances, these two opposing(!) fields are of comparable strength, the net field in the dielectricum is relatively small or even close to zero, so the polarization inside the dielectricum cannot maintain itself, it is weakened by the field of the capacitor plates.

It has been a while since I thought about this and now I am not so sure about the parts that talk about the breakdown of the dielectric. Coming to think about this, it appears that the reason for having to use pulses for the polarisation of the dielectric is exactly because the fields created by the capacitor plates and the dielectric oppose one another. So, you can only utilise the field created by the dielectric (which extends into the electrolyte fluide) to split water (in the electrolyte) when you discharge the capacitor plates themselves...


So, yes, I think the use of an insulating dielectric layer makes it possible to split water using an electric field instead of an electric current.

However, if you use the tubes as a normal capacitor and the dielectric layer as just an insulator, you will need and maintain very high voltages across your capacitor plates, which will most likely give a lot energy leakage problems as well as gives you the problem that the dielectric "insulator" will polarise and oppose your applied electric field.

OTOH: if you use the same tubes as an electrolytic capacitor, meaning you have to create the dielectric layer electrolytically (as I posted here http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post78487 ) in order to make it very thin, then can get a considerable electric field inside your fluid without the need to maintain very high voltages for a considerable amount of time.

To make a long story short: I am convinced the key is: the use of a dielectric layer that is maintained as a semi-permanent electret using high voltage pulses, such as created by Bedini's SSG and the like.

[lamare]

There's also a very interesting comment here, saying basically the same thing: The Water Fuel Cell :: View topic - WFC Conditioning Update

"I know there has been little or no interest in what I said about the oxide layer on the SS actually being the dielectric, but something I read on another forum by 'Ravi', has made me even more convinced by this now. He stated that it took months for his cells to be conditioned and working at the efficiency they were currently working at.

This is what I think is happening:

Stainless steel is 'stainless' because of the chromuim in it. The chromium oxidises when it comes into contact with oxygen. This creates an invisible, extremely thin film of chromuim oxide (Cr2O3). This film of chromium oxide self-heals like galvanised steel, but unlike galvanised steel the layer is only atoms thick. Chromium oxide is an insulator, with a dielectric constant of around 13, but at literally only atoms thick, simply touching it will break through this insulation.

Now, the interesting thing about stainless steel is that it will actually corrode badly in an OXYGEN FREE environment. It is the continual presence of oxygen in the air or water that allows the oxide film to self-heal and maintain itself. Now, think about what we do when we use ss as an anode. We immerse the ss in water containing free oxygen which maintains its protective oxide layer, but then we attract lots of pure oxygen directly onto it's surface. I believe we are enhancing the oxide layer; thickening the oxide layer and so creating a more formidable dielectric layer. Hence we have a better water capacitor that will hold a charge for longer"

Water as the dielectric was always a bug-bear of mine, as I never really thought this possible, or likely... put simply tap water conducts. Then the importance of conditioning of the plates came to light more and more, and with it realisation that the conditioning was actually forming an insulating dielectric layer. Water is not the dielectric.

We have the capacitor now, with water being simply an all encompassing extension of the cathode. Next question then is how exactly are we getting the water molecule to split and release its component gases?

If the oxide layer is an insulator, forming the capacitor, then it should opposed DC. AC, on the other, hand would pass to a lesser or greater degree, with the capacitor allowing far more current flow at higher frequencies than lower frequencies.

The thing is, we are not providing an AC signal to our capacitor (which is polarised), but rather DC pulses. The capacitor will charge from the DC pulses, so there will be a standing voltage across the dielectric, and as this leaks the pulses will keep topping the capacitor up.

However, this leakage current, will prevent the voltage reaching the 'stress' level needed to physically pull the water apart, unless we can top it up faster than it can leak.

I think that the small current flowing through the wfc is simply the natural dc leakage current of a 'wet electrolytic capacitor', and will likely happen all the time because of the pd across the dielectric. No amount of so-called 'amp consuming devices' before the wfc will stop this. Only improving the dielectric layer will reduce this.

However, (s)he also talks about dielectric breakdown:

If and when a DC pulse attains a certain level of potential difference across the oxide layer dielectric, then this dielectric layer (not the water) briefly, but catastrophically breaks down. The highly charged plates effectively short out across this dielectric layer. However, the current restricting LC combination won't allow this to happen fast enough. The electrical charges on the plates are unable to form an equilibrium and hence balance the plate charges from within the electrical circuit. Instead, other options are looked for - this being the water. The water is instantly ionised as the water is effectively pulled apart, the ions attempting to meet or, at least reduce the massive charge deficit on the plates.

When this happens, current through the circuit is not affected much, but a lot is happening to the water within the wfc.

IMHO, this is not the answer. Especially some reports about "cold boiling" batteries up to half an hour after the power has been shut off strongly suggest that the keys to these kind of phenomenon are to be found in the electric field(s) created by polarised dielectric layer(s), not in electric currents / charge movements.

[Raui]

I'm not into the whole HHO scene like a lot of you researchers are however I have always though about dissociation through potential only. One experiment I had in mind was to have a good source of dielectric induction power supply which I can change the frequency at will and I would attach the supply to the two electrodes which are insulated and place them in water to see if I could achieve some dissociation at a particular frequency. Tesla sent his energy through the world using dielectric phenomena and not many people are investigating dielectric phenomena these days so I thought it could be rather fruitful. Just my two cents.

Raui

[natone_m]

But ....is also important understand that is more important work on state of water.. you increase a lot the efficency passing from liquid water to water vapour, for that Meyer have updated water system using that solution.

I was wondering about the voltages used with various forms of water. What are some good starting votages ranges that people have discovered is the best for water vapor versus liquid? I'm planning on building a WFC and I've seen alot of different talk of different types. High voltage low current, or high current, WFC or small injectors ect. If effeciency is increased by using water vapor how is it fed to a WFC? Is there a manufacturer of an enexpensive water heating system that someone has a link to?

[Farrah Day]

HMS

There is so much wrong with what has been said in this thread that it's difficult to know where to start.

First and foremost though, it should be pointed out that electrons themselves do not move through a liquid. Tut, tut, you should know better.

Secondly, you talk about Meyer's process not being a chemical reaction! I wonder if you realise just how stupid this statement is? Obviously not!

Finally, you're not the first person to think that he knows exactly what Meyer was talking about, and you certainly won't be the last. Just take comfort from the fact that Meyer himself did not know what he was talking about.

Do a little research and apply a lot of science to what you have suggested, and you might just see where the real problems lie, and indeed where fantasy and science depart.

[sebosfato]

Hello HMS You theory is nice, however from my experiments with dielectrics coatings and up to 40kv i can tell you that is not the way meyer did. He used current yes. And also very expensive catalyst materials to achieve what he claimed. Not that easy...

I have contact with a man that have a patent about generating h2 and we know how to do it, we just miss some money to construct the prototype. It has more to do with the self ionization of the water and ions speed than only capacitance variance.

This capacitance decrease you mention is non sense and i can explain to you why... is because if you decrease the capacitance you will increase the voltage but the amount of charge will remain the same so no sense no gain no explanation.

There is a patent witch is called fracture cell by eccles where he explain the same self ionization principle witch i'm talking about.

All the time water self ionize, its ions, however, you need to find a way to keep its oh- and h3+ ions apart otherwise they immediately recombine when you try to split them apart. There are mechanisms to help this organized ionization. There are mechanisms to apply two different power sources to the water + 1 kind of force. There is still yet a way where one of this sources to be rf energy and the other very very low tension at huge huge huge amperage, to generate tons of h2 and o2. There is a way where you use proprieties correlated with the D orbitals of some materials associated with lattice holes to help dissociate and keep apart the ions at the high speed needed. There is still another way to control the action of this materials witch never get consumed in the process to behave as a sponge for ions if you like. There are inexpensive membranes made of a material witch where used for construction of structures 3000 yeas ago that still exist floating over he water all around the world. There are pumps that work very efficiently. There are tanks made of fiber glass. There are Inductors made of copper bars and not thin wire. Resonant capacitors that can handle 10kA...

Best Regards

[SeaMonkey]

HMS

There is so much wrong with what has been said in this thread that it's difficult to know where to start.

First and foremost though, it should be pointed out that electrons themselves do not move through a liquid. Tut, tut, you should know better.

Secondly, you talk about Meyer's process not being a chemical reaction! I wonder if you realise just how stupid this statement is? Obviously not!

Finally, you're not the first person to think that he knows exactly what Meyer was talking about, and you certainly won't be the last. Just take comfort from the fact that Meyer himself did not know what he was talking about.

Do a little research and apply a lot of science to what you have suggested, and you might just see where the real problems lie, and indeed where fantasy and science depart.

Farrah,

It is so good to see that you are still taking
an active role in 'setting the record straight!'

There is certainly a great deal of misunderstanding
regarding the work of Meyer, and others. And
an enormous amount of 'dis-info' floating about
the web.

Knowledge is the answer!

I for one truly appreciate your efforts to
encourage study and learning! And the
way you unabashedly 'tell it like it is!'