Future Energy hydroxy cell

[lamare]

I see. Unfortunately it doesn't quite work like that. If it did gases would continually evolve from water due to self-ionisation and intermolecular movements alone.

This I feel is where we really start to see things differently due to our individual knowledge bases and personal experience.

Not necessarily. You see, there is a difference between "continually evolve from water due to self-ionisation and intermolecular movements alone" and when you provide energy to the ions that are present in the fluid....

And ions are a charge exchange medium!

Now I can't say with 100% certainty that there is no difference, cause there is. Ions are not the same things as electrons, but as far as I am aware the currents normally going trough the fluid occur for 99.99% because of ions in the water, since pure water is not a good conductor. And as far as I remember this can happen, because these ions become nutralized at one plate by either taking or releasing an electron. And these subsequently become charged again, because they either react with f.e. H+ or OH- ions, or they drift to the other plate.

So, all things considered, I think there is not much of a difference at all. And given that both Meyer and Puharich claimed they were able to produce gas without current, most likely along the way I explained, I think there is a really fair chance this way of thinking is indeed correct.

And remember: H+ and OH- ions aren't the only ions in the fluid when you add an electrolyte! You do add that to be able to drive a current trough your water, and Puharich gives pretty good numbers about what would be the best concentration of salts in your water....

[Farrah Day]

And ions are a charge exchange medium!

No they're not!

And I reiterate:

It's not so much about current flowing as charge exchanging. Current flow through the fluid is ionic, OH- and H+. Why would these two ionic species swap charges rather than simply bond to neutralise... as we know they do? We may not need current, what we do need is a charge exchange medium... or another mechanism entirely.

Look, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this Lamare, as there is not really anything you said in that last post that I can agree with. This is also likely the reason why you and I see Meyer in completely different lights.

[lamare]

No they're not!

And I reiterate:

It's not so much about current flowing as charge exchanging. Current flow through the fluid is ionic, OH- and H+. Why would these two ionic species swap charges rather than simply bond to neutralise... as we know they do? We may not need current, what we do need is a charge exchange medium... or another mechanism entirely.

Look, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this Lamare, as there is not really anything you said in that last post that I can agree with. This is also likely the reason why you and I see Meyer in completely different lights.

Why should we have to disagree? Either it works, or it doesn't. And either way, we should be able to explain why or why not.

Let me ask you a question that may explain things:
Why would ions release charges across a dielectric (on a ss tube f.e.) to a plate, "rather than simply bond to neutralise... as we know they do?"

Because there's an electric field that pulls the electrons across the dielectic, either as a leakage current or by dielectric breakdown, depending on the strength of the electric field.

[lamare]

Controlling the resonance mode of the driving coils

Hi all,

I have added a new section to my article:

Article:Free Electric Energy in Theory and Practice - PESWiki

--::--
Controlling the resonance mode of the driving coils

I have stated above that you can choose what kind of signal to feed your WFCs with by controlling the resonance mode of your driving coils. Quarter wave resonance gives you low voltage, high current in the middle, half wave resonance gives you high voltage, low current in the middle. But how can you control this?

The answer to that question lies in the phase difference between voltage and current going trough a coil. There is a 90 degree phase shift between the voltage and the current. And it is that difference you can use to control the resonance mode of the driving coils, simply by making sure the resonance mode you want has a 360 degree phase shift all around the feedback loop, as explained here:
RC Oscillator

For an oscillator to oscillate sufficient feedback of the correct phase, ie "Positive Feedback" must be provided with the amplifier being used as an inverting stage to achieve this. In a RC Oscillator the input is shifted 180o through the amplifier stage and 180o again through a second inverting stage giving us "180o + 180o = 360o" of phase shift which is the same as 0o thereby giving us the required positive feedback.

In a Resistance-Capacitance Oscillator or simply an RC Oscillator, we make use of the fact that a phase shift occurs between the input to a RC network and the output from the same network. for example.

RC Phase-Shift Network

The phase shift network can also be implemented active, as explained here:
Analog Wide Band Audio Phase Shift Networks

--::--

[Farrah Day]

Let me ask you a question that may explain things:
Why would ions release charges across a dielectric (on a ss tube f.e.) to a plate, "rather than simply bond to neutralise... as we know they do?"

Because there's an electric field that pulls the electrons across the dielectic, either as a leakage current or by dielectric breakdown, depending on the strength of the electric field.

I'm not really sure what you think you are explaining here Lamare, but if you've asked yourself that question and found your answer satisfactory, then so be it.

I've been involved in this particular area of science for a long time now. I'm not trying to recall what I was taught at school, nor have I only recently opened a book on electrolysis, so what you accept as explaining things, I don't and can't.

At this stage the science behind any over-Faraday results is still an unknown, and based on what we know - or think we know - you clearly have your theories and I have mine. Given what I know, I think that the most likely explanation relates to the use of an electrolyte such as Sodium Hydroxide - a possible reaction of which I believe I detailed on my Closed-Loop Electrolyser thread. But until we pin down what is really happening - which may just be far more complicated than we anticipate - we're just left with theories and trial an error replication attempts.

[lamare]

I've been involved in this particular area of science for a long time now. I'm not trying to recall what I was taught at school, nor have I only recently opened a book on electrolysis, so what you accept as explaining things, I don't and can't.

At this stage the science behind any over-Faraday results is still an unknown, and based on what we know - or think we know - you clearly have your theories and I have mine. Given what I know, I think that the most likely explanation relates to the use of an electrolyte such as Sodium Hydroxide - a possible reaction of which I believe I detailed on my Closed-Loop Electrolyser thread. But until we pin down what is really happening - which may just be far more complicated than we anticipate - we're just left with theories and trial an error replication attempts.

Okay, let me first thank you for the discussion so far, because you have asked the right questions and challenged me.

Now let's wrap up the discussion for now.

My take on the WFC is that there is nothing unusual about the reactions going on. It's all about how to get the power and how to apply it to your fluid.

Now we know you can perform electrolysis using the normal Farday way, which comes down to driving a current trough your fluid. That can be done using the power from the electric field for free with the techniques I analysed from Gray, Puharich and Meyer. No problem.

Then it may be that it is also possible to perform the same reaction inside the fluid, by applying the current and the energy in another way. If that works, and the statements by Meyer and Puharich as well as Naudin's experiment suggest it does, then that way is probably more efficient, because you are independent of the contact area of the tubes for the production of your gas.

So, as far as I can tell, it's only the last part we disagree on. I think it is likely that this is possible, you think it is not. Fair enough for me, cause it doesn't really matter that much at this moment. What counts is that we now know how to get the power and how to design the electric circuitry to get these things working, while tapping the power from the electric field.

Time will tell if there is only one mode of operation, classic Farday, or that it is also possible to perform the exact same reaction "in fluid" and wether or not that is more efficient, if it works.

To me, it doesn't really matter what will turn out to be correct eventually. It's not about who is right or wrong, it's about getting these things to work! And I am sure all the information discussed in this thread will make it happen pretty soon.

So, thanks again for the discussion so far and for the time being we can agree to disagree on this detail. No problem.

[UncleFester]

Looks like Fred Wells is claiming the truck is running on a version similar to these plans

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...el-system.html

Not sure whether to laugh or cry

Tad

[Farrah Day]

Looks like Fred Wells is claiming the truck is running on a version similar to these plans

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...el-system.html

Not sure whether to laugh or cry

Tad

I had exactly the same thoughts when he provided a link to the earlier plans, but assumed that this new unit must be substantially different. Though I am now just beginning to wonder if he's simply drawing more current through it.

Just a few other thoughts while we wait for breaking news from FF.

Firstly, I'm extremely surprised that he can get away with driving the vehicle on either gasoline or hydroxy without altering the timing. This does seem a little odd to me.

Does anyone know the timing of that particular Dodge truck? Surely it must fire well after TDC, otherwise the engine would be making some very funny noises and have blown up well before the 3000 miles they claim to have driven on hydroxy.

Tad, regarding what happens at so-called resonance, I've long thought that this has nothing particularly to do with the electronics resonating, and more to do with the water ionising.

We know that if we draw a current through water, that intermolecular collisions and near misses generate electric fields that occasionally add enough energy to a water molecule to cause it to ionise, and that this is all the current really does. The ionic species are then drawn by the voltage potential on the electrodes which goes some way to prevent the ions reforming as water and of course provides the charge exchange medium.

So the current not only causes ionisation, but those ionic species then become part of the current, which then as they are drawn to the electrodes can induce further ionisation. But drawing the initial current through the cell is inefficient, and very hit and miss.

My take on this when pulsing is this:

By pulsing the voltage across the electrodes, the associated electric field is inducing the water to ionise. The the resulting ionic species are the drawn apart and attracted to the voltage on the electrodes, but the key thing is that we no longer need to draw a heavy current through the cell from the supply to induce ionisation.

As ionisation is an endothermic process, this would also explain why these cells are said to remain relatively cool.

So, at least from my point of view, we need a small dc standing voltage on the electrodes, which may just be helped by the formation of a dielectric mineral build up (conditioning), and we need to apply an alternating electric field that best induces ionisation. It may be that this is frequency related, but it may also be voltage related, one or the other, or both - or indeed perhaps the waveform is critical. Of course if it is voltage related and the higher the better, then having the cells as part of a tuned LC circuit then starts to make sense.

In this scenario, things are quite simple. There are no mysterious or exotic reactions taking place and there is no need for inner and outer tube tuning as there are no physical oscillations of the tubes. We still get the same reactions occuring at the electrodes as in normal electrolysis, but we are simply inducing ionisation far more efficiently.

There would be no need to explain the gains via radiant energy or the aether (which people often feel the need to do), instead, the cell itself simply becomes the source of the greater current flow. There would still be losses due to the resistance of the water to the passage of ionic species, but it would be far more efficient as a whole.

If this is the case, we simply need to determine what voltage waveform or pulsed voltage frequency has the greatest effect on the water molecule.

It really might just be that we've been looking too hard and thinking too deep. Mind you, none of it is helped by some of the weird and wonderful so-called science that inventors in the past have posted by way of an explanation. It may seem to be over-Faraday, but that would be because of where the measurements are taken from - in reality, the gases evolved would be abiding fully by Faraday's Laws of Electrolysis.

To round off then, what I'd most like to see is the signal across FF's WFC... preferably before he pops his clogs!

[lamare]

So, at least from my point of view, we need a small dc standing voltage on the electrodes, which may just be helped by the formation of a dielectric mineral build up (conditioning), and we need to apply an alternating electric field that best induces ionisation. It may be that this is frequency related, but it may also be voltage related, one or the other, or both - or indeed perhaps the waveform is critical. Of course if it is voltage related and the higher the better, then having the cells as part of a tuned LC circuit then starts to make sense.

In this scenario, things are quite simple. There are no mysterious or exotic reactions taking place and there is no need for inner and outer tube tuning as there are no physical oscillations of the tubes. We still get the same reactions occuring at the electrodes as in normal electrolysis, but we are simply inducing ionisation far more efficiently.

There would be no need to explain the gains via radiant energy or the aether (which people often feel the need to do), instead, the cell itself simply becomes the source of the greater current flow. There would still be losses due to the resistance of the water to the passage of ionic species, but it would be far more efficient as a whole.

If this is the case, we simply need to determine what voltage waveform or pulsed voltage frequency has the greatest effect on the water molecule.

It really might just be that we've been looking too hard and thinking too deep. Mind you, none of it is helped by some of the weird and wonderful so-called science that inventors in the past have posted by way of an explanation. It may seem to be over-Faraday, but that would be because of where the measurements are taken from - in reality, the gases evolved would be abiding fully by Faraday's Laws of Electrolysis.

To round off then, what I'd most like to see is the signal across FF's WFC... preferably before he pops his clogs!

I think you are on the right track, good to read things are starting to make sense. I think what is important regarding "tuning" of the tubes is that the distance between the tubes is as constant as possible, cause that is one of the parameters that determines the resonance frequency of the fluid in between the tubes. And resonance is one of the keys by which you are able to draw power from the ether.

[Vickers]

Hmmm...Hijacked thread. Back to the start.
Some points of interest here.

The cell is pressurized. Therefore the boiling point has been raised. Which will result in higher temp and more efficiency.

Stand alone system. Not a joke booster.

HHO is injected via fuel rail???????? Has to be. Explains pressurization.

ECU will adjust to suit. Has no choice. In fact there is no reason I know why It would fail for hho only system.... as long as production flow is sufficient.

May have used alloy anode in first design and subsequently realized the benefits of high heat pressurized electrolysis????

Uses PWM to control input current once cell has reached operating temp?(like a stove simmer stat)? Dont take much energy to keep water boiling. Kinda like pushing a kid on a swing. A few good shoves at first and then use your little finger to maintain momentum.

He uses a dryer?? Not to too sure why. I would have thought vapor would be advantages in this system.

[adam_mizer]

FF cell

Ive been following along, you have a great discussion.
Maybe I have missed certain things but I'll input this anyway.

Freddy says he pulses at 15hz which is very close to Schuman resonant peak at 14.3hz. Why was it chosen, it is a powerful magnetic field.
The part I have not seen discussed yet is there are magnetic coils on the bottom of the cell, personally they appear to be wrapped on the studs to the outer tube (ones with the brass tubes). This add's another interesting force into the equation. Now top that all off with 60psi in the cell housing. Several applied forces which all have not been experimented together or at least I havn't seen or read anything about this yet.

The tubes are tuned and here is an excerp from emails years ago talking about Lawtons tubes:
[4/1/2007 3:40:25 PM] Tao says: Just doing a simple calculation a tube in
plain fresh water, the equation from
Acoustic resonance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia shows f=(n*v)/(2*L) where n corresponds to the harmonic, v is the speed of sound in the water, and L is
the length of the tube....
So, lets simplify this equation, n can be always 1, v is 1435 m/s in fresh
water according to Wikipedia.
So, f = (1*1435)/(2*L) = 717.5 / L = f , Just for fun, lets take the
frequency Dave was producing Hydroxy at in his latest video on Youtube:
3425.781Hz
So, 3425.781 = 717.5 / L , L = 717.5 / 3425.781 = 0.21 meters , So that
would be 8.27 inches long.... So, how long in inches are Dave's tubes? Just
curious........
[4/2/2007 11:26:20 PM] Tao says: So, I asked how long Dave's tubes were,
well, I looked up how long they were from an old post Dave did on the
original forum back in 2004...
[4/2/2007 11:26:44 PM] Tao says: Dave said that his tubes were about
12.5-13cm (which is about 5 inches long)
[4/2/2007 11:27:39 PM] Tao says: so, calculating that into the equation:
717.5 / L = f , we have 717.5 / 0.1275 = f , so f = about 5650Hz
[4/2/2007 11:28:21 PM] Tao says: So, based on what it says at the END of
that video on youtube, it says that the hydroxy was being produced at
3425.78Hz
[4/2/2007 11:29:00 PM] Tao says: BUT, they acoustic frequency came out to be
5650Hz, so I said, 'oh, too bad' seems there isn't much of a connection, I
guess I need to do more research'
[4/2/2007 11:29:10 PM] Tao says: UNTIL, I just watched that video
again..........
[4/2/2007 11:29:50 PM] Tao says: Look at what Dave was pulsing his DC at in
the video: 5714Hz!!!! At 1:11 in the video you can see what he was pulsing
at.......
[4/2/2007 11:30:58 PM] Tao says: Based on the equation for acoustic
resonance, Dave was pulsing his tubes at the EXACT frequency at which those
tubes will resonate ACOUSTICALLY in FRESH WATER... So, my finding was
basically his: Dave found the BEST gas production at the VERY SAME frequency
that just so happens to be where his tubes resonate ACOUSTICALLY IN WATER
... HMMM...
Maybe it is nothing at all but a coincidence, but maybe there is just
something to it........................

Something else about the tuning because I can't wrap my head around yet I believe the 2mm gap of the small tubes is also a harmonic of the open tube frequency. Then add the the large tube-set at 4 octives below the small tubes and its gap of 1mm another harmonic of the picture.

There has to be some intense science behind this to achieve the final outcome that just hasn't been evaluated yet.

[lamare]

[4/2/2007 11:29:10 PM] Tao says: UNTIL, I just watched that video
again..........
[4/2/2007 11:29:50 PM] Tao says: Look at what Dave was pulsing his DC at in
the video: 5714Hz!!!! At 1:11 in the video you can see what he was pulsing
at.......
[4/2/2007 11:30:58 PM] Tao says: Based on the equation for acoustic
resonance, Dave was pulsing his tubes at the EXACT frequency at which those
tubes will resonate ACOUSTICALLY in FRESH WATER... So, my finding was
basically his: Dave found the BEST gas production at the VERY SAME frequency
that just so happens to be where his tubes resonate ACOUSTICALLY IN WATER
... HMMM...
Maybe it is nothing at all but a coincidence, but maybe there is just
something to it........................

Something else about the tuning because I can't wrap my head around yet I believe the 2mm gap of the small tubes is also a harmonic of the open tube frequency. Then add the the large tube-set at 4 octives below the small tubes and its gap of 1mm another harmonic of the picture.

There has to be some intense science behind this to achieve the final outcome that just hasn't been evaluated yet.

OF COURSE!!

The pipes are just like the pipes in an organ, for example. The walls are stiff, because of the metal, so you can't get accoustic resonance perpendicular with respect to the tube walls. The resonance has only one way to go and that is in the length of the pipes. And the way to keep it going is by exciting it electrically, meanwhile providing power extracted from the electric field.

Awesome find!!

One more piece of the puzzle dropping into place.

[Farrah Day]

Freddy says he pulses at 15hz which is very close to Schuman resonant peak at 14.3hz. Why was it chosen, it is a powerful magnetic field.
The part I have not seen discussed yet is there are magnetic coils on the bottom of the cell, personally they appear to be wrapped on the studs to the outer tube (ones with the brass tubes). This add's another interesting force into the equation. Now top that all off with 60psi in the cell housing. Several applied forces which all have not been experimented together or at least I havn't seen or read anything about this yet.

Hi Adam, where does FF say he pulses at 15Hz? I may have missed this, but it's hard to see where 15Hz relates to his (now deleted) tube tuning video.

Why are you relating frequency to a 'powerful magnetic field'?

What magnetic coils on the bottom of the cell? How do you know this, FF hasn't disclosed the schematics or a photo of this yet... has he? Brass tubes? You've lost me - can you provide a link?

[eclipz]

Maybe all is not only just 1 frequency maybe is more like what mike explain in this thread.

None Electrolytic Splitting Of H2o

It kinda look like that to me. Anyone have tried that?
I'll probably going to try it soon.

[Farrah Day]

eclipz, FF appears to be using an off the shelf PWM, which provides dc pulses of a user adjustable frequency, with a gating frequency option.

What's happened to him I wonder? I was only joking about him 'popping his clogs' before he gives up the secrets!