Future Energy hydroxy cell

[Farrah Day]

TUBE is not fork and does not resonate that way ... its probably longitudinal sound wave along tube metal .. and holding it does not change frequency .. I tested and proved to myself.. holding tube makes sound shorter in time and higher harmonics are dampened... more to say base harmonics is left untouched..
Tried with different tubes.....

It's all sound waves isn't it, and the ringing sound we hear is the item oscillating at it's resonant frequency.

I don't understand what you mean by base harmonics? Harmonics surely refer to frequencies in multiples higher than the fundamental frequency.

If something resonates at 2kHz, you can't have a harmonic of 500hz... can you? Or when you say base harmonics, do you mean fundamental frequency?

[lamare]

Meyer never once talks about the dielectric layer on the stainless steel, and we know from experimenting that the chromium oxide does not prevent current flow as you would expect from an insulative coating.

I'm not saying that it does not play some small part, just that it does not appear to be any kind of electrical insulator, hence in reality will incur little or no voltage drop.

But these are all long standing issues that arise on a regular basis, when people talk about very high voltage drops across the cells in a WFC, but with little or next to no current flow.

I'm not saying there is/should be a dielectric layer on the stainless steel, only that the tubes are capacitors to a certain extent, whatever way you look at it. If they would be in the air, you would be talking about a capacitance in the order of maybe 100 pF. If a suitable dielectric layer is formed, you are talking 10s to 100s of uF.

Then there's the ions in between the plates. If these move, there is a current and therefore a magnetic field, depending on the movements of the ions and the frequency as well. If there is some form of resonance inside the fluid at something like a few kHz, you definately get electromagnetic waves also, which end up in your coils.

So, you can't treat the WFC as a simple resistor if you managed to create an electrolytic capacitor inside your tubes and you can't treat it as a simple capacitor if you manage to get ions inside your fluid into some kind of resonance....

[Farrah Day]

OK Lamare, I'm not particularly following your line of reasoning here, but I'll give it further thought.

However, if we consider something simple like the resonant frequency of a pendulum, resonance immediately stops once the pendulum is prevented swinging past it's bottom position. Surely this is effectively what halfwave rectification does. Once we eliminate the reverse swing, we destroy the cycle of oscillation and hence resonance.

How does your idea that resonance can be maintained fit in with the pendulum analogy?

[lamare]

Meyer series LC resonance circuit can ONLY resonate at SINGLE frequency...
So seems that puharich way and Meyer ways are different ?
Electricaly those higher harmonics are filtered by series LC circuit that produce sine current at the capacitor (cell) and SQUARE voltage on the capacitor (cell)
so cell is basicly capacitor + low resisntce resistor ALL in one...
hmm..

Not only that, it is also an inductor if you manage to get the ions inside the fluid into some form of resonance.

Now you probably understand why Electrical Engineers hate high frequencies. It is because you have to take all these so called "parasitic components" into account. Even a piece of wire has a capacitance *and* an inductance and at some point, you have to account for that.

So, the main resonance will be determined by the coils and the capacitance of the WFC, but also by the self-capacitance of the coils.

Beside that, there can be all kind of parasite components that start to vibrate in ways you don't want them to, so you do not get one "pure" harmonic resonance, but some kind of mix of the different frequencies all the different components like to vibrate at.

[Farrah Day]

So, you can't treat the WFC as a simple resistor if you managed to create an electrolytic capacitor inside your tubes and you can't treat it as a simple capacitor if you manage to get ions inside your fluid into some kind of resonance....

My main argument to this is that the electrolyte (or water) in not an insulator, and two metal plates with a conductor in between is never going to be a very effective capacitor, just a non-linear resistor.

[lamare]

How does your idea that resonance can be maintained fit in with the pendulum analogy?

Ok, think of it as push the pendulum like you would push a child sitting on a swing.

Only don't push continously, but throw a pile of balls one after the other onto the back of the child during the time the pendulum is in the upper "dead" position and the lowest point at the bottom....

[lamare]

My main argument to this is that the electrolyte (or water) in not an insulator, and two metal plates with a conductor in between is never going to be a very effective capacitor, just a non-linear resistor.

The point is that you *do* have all these parasitic components at the same time, wether they are "good" or not. It mostly depends on the used frequency wether or not they bother you and wether or not you have to account for them.

[Farrah Day]

The point is that you *do* have all these parasitic components at the same time, wether they are "good" or not. It mostly depends on the used frequency wether or not they bother you and wether or not you have to account for them.

Granted there must be all sorts of current flowing and parasitic elements happening and it's probably far more complicated than we see it as being.

However, I'm still not convinced that you can achieve resonance when you halfwave rectify the signal.

To me this is like a swing being placed right next to a wall, and after you pull the kid on the swing back to initiate the oscillation, when you let go he hits the wall head on at the bottom of the cycle - one hell of a dampened oscillation if you ask me!

[lamare]

Granted there must be all sorts of current flowing and parasitic elements happening and it's probably far more complicated than we see it as being.

However, I'm still not convinced that you can achieve resonance when you halfwave rectify the signal.

To me this is like a swing being placed right next to a wall, and after you pull the kid on the swing back to initiate the oscillation, when you let go he hits the wall head on at the bottom of the cycle - one hell of a dampened oscillation if you ask me!

Take once again a look at this oscillator:

As long as the voltage at the lower terminal of L2 is 0.6V above the (fixed) base voltage of the transistor the transistor is open. So, it drives the coil during half the cycle. Which would be half rectified, right?

[Farrah Day]

As long as the voltage at the lower terminal of L2 is 0.6V above the (fixed) base voltage of the transistor the transistor is open. So, it drives the coil during half the cycle. Which would be half rectified, right?

I'm not disputing the workings of that cct Lamare, or indeed the idea of a halfwave rectified signal doing some work. I do however think that we appear to have very different views and interpretations of resonance!

[lamare]

I'm not disputing the workings of that cct Lamare, or indeed the idea of a halfwave rectified signal doing some work. I do however think that we appear to have very different views and interpretations of resonance!

You seem to mix up that what is resonating and that what is pushing the thing that is resonating, so to speak.....

The thing resonating is resonating in either half or full wave resonance (or multiples thereof), otherwise you don't have the high voltage, zero current at your coil terminals.

The signal that is pushing the thing into resonance is another story. That is the one that is on top of a half (or full) rectified carrier wave.

So, don't mix up the child on the swing with the guy that is pushing him/her!!

[HairBear]

Granted there must be all sorts of current flowing and parasitic elements happening and it's probably far more complicated than we see it as being.

However, I'm still not convinced that you can achieve resonance when you halfwave rectify the signal.

To me this is like a swing being placed right next to a wall, and after you pull the kid on the swing back to initiate the oscillation, when you let go he hits the wall head on at the bottom of the cycle - one hell of a dampened oscillation if you ask me!

You are making it way more complicated than it really is. Maybe it's old school illustrations that confuse you? Again, with a slight twist on the swing analogy, AC should be viewed as two people pushing the swinger back and forth arranged one on each side @ 180° apart. Half wave DC can be viewed as one pusher pushing the swinger in a full one way revolution repeatedly. DC full wave is two pushers 180° apart pushing in one direction repeatedly. Using a wall analogy to describe resistance is a bit drastic, don't you think? A merry-go-round might be a better analogy tool for such an illustration perhaps.

Remember also, all matter from the smallest to the largest has a certain amount of inductance, capacitance and resistance making all forms of matter resonant. The resonant frequencies(yes, there is always more than one) of any given matter is based on shape and size(mass) for the most part.

[grizli]

It's all sound waves isn't it, and the ringing sound we hear is the item oscillating at it's resonant frequency.

I don't understand what you mean by base harmonics? Harmonics surely refer to frequencies in multiples higher than the fundamental frequency.

If something resonates at 2kHz, you can't have a harmonic of 500hz... can you? Or when you say base harmonics, do you mean fundamental harmonics?

Yes
Lowest pitch harmonic, of fundamental frequency..

[grizli]

Not only that, it is also an inductor if you manage to get the ions inside the fluid into some form of resonance.

Now you probably understand why Electrical Engineers hate high frequencies. It is because you have to take all these so called "parasitic components" into account. Even a piece of wire has a capacitance *and* an inductance and at some point, you have to account for that.

So, the main resonance will be determined by the coils and the capacitance of the WFC, but also by the self-capacitance of the coils.

Beside that, there can be all kind of parasite components that start to vibrate in ways you don't want them to, so you do not get one "pure" harmonic resonance, but some kind of mix of the different frequencies all the different components like to vibrate at.

meyer used big coils and cell itself has very low capacity..hmm


If cell is coated with dielectric.. all that HV will be inside dielectric, water as conductor still cant SEE hv. Basicly you have cell in series with big capacitor... dont we ?

[lamare]

meyer used big coils and cell itself has very low capacity..hmm


If cell is coated with dielectric.. all that HV will be inside dielectric, water as conductor still cant SEE hv. Basicly you have cell in series with big capacitor... dont we ?

You get two capacitors across the dielectic coating, which is always there in the case of aluminum or stainless steel. The thinner the layer, the larger the capacitance. These are both in series with the conducting fluid.

If one layer is very thin, you get an electrolytic capacitor, in which the overall capacitance is mostly determined by the thickest layer.

Update:
Of course any dielectric breaks down at a certain strength of the electric field. Since this is determined by the voltage across a certain thickness, a dielectric layer on a metal breaks down at a certain voltage. So, if you have one plate with a relatively thick layer and another one with a very thin layer, the one with the thin layer breaks down easily and becomes a conductor. To give you an idea: the typical thickness of the thick layer in an electrolytic capacitor is several micro meters. The other one is much thinner. The thick one breaks at about 120% of the specified voltage of the elco. The thin layer breaks at a much lower voltage, say 0.1 V.

That means that if your dielectric coating is thin enough, the dielectric layer breaks down at a low voltage, something in the order of 0.1V, and becomes a conductor. So, then the external voltage and current ends up in your fluid, with a loss of, in this case, 2 times the 0.1V. Of course, the breakdown voltage depends on the dielectric material characteristics and the thickness of the layer, so the 0.1 V is just an example.