Future Energy hydroxy cell

[lamare]

Some more on resonance

First some more on coating. On one of Freddy's video's he shows his tubes wear out. That means the dielectic layers on both tubes are that thin that they are driven above their breakdown voltage. Otherwise the dielectric would protect the tubes from wearing out. So that mistery is solved now.

Then about resonance. I have done some analysis of resonating coils some time ago, which you can find in my article. Now if you manage to get a higher harmonic standing wave in between your tubes, which would be both electric and acoustic, then you get the same current at the hot spots, but you only have to pay for the current at the hot spots at your tube surfaces. So, that way you can get a real power gain, power which is tapped from the electric field by the charge carriers in your fluid. The ones that don't reach your tubes....

The only question then is: is electrolysis possible with "in fluid" currents? I guess the answer is yes, cause otherwise this won't work....

[Farrah Day]

First some more on coating. On one of Freddy's video's he shows his tubes wear out. That means the dielectic layers on both tubes are that thin that they are driven above their breakdown voltage. Otherwise the dielectric would protect the tubes from wearing out. So that mistery is solved now.

I don't think FF's tube corrosion is voltage related, otherwise we would all see this in our cells. Clearly this is a current density issue and nothing to do with any kind of dielectric breakdown voltage.

Look Lamare, you can't have it both ways here, either the dielectric oxide coating on the ss is breaking down at very low voltages - basically the voltage required to initiate electrolysis in the first place - and so not doing anything or it plays a part as a dielectric at higher voltages.

We are led to believe that Meyer was using voltages of thousands of volts, so how then is a dielectric that breaks down at around 1.5 volts ever going to play any part?

HB

I'm neither confused or making it any more complicated than necessary. If you see things differently then perhaps it is you that are confused?

AC should be viewed as two people pushing the swinger back and forth arranged one on each side @ 180° apart. Half wave DC can be viewed as one pusher pushing the swinger in a full one way revolution repeatedly. DC full wave is two pushers 180° apart pushing in one direction repeatedly. Using a wall analogy to describe resistance is a bit drastic, don't you think?

I don't agree HB, your analogy is flawed. For a start you don't need two people pushing a swing for it to oscillate, the swing merely needs to be able to go all the way past it's lowest point and up the other side before it again returns to the one pusher. Two pushers are not necessary. Of course, in this analogy the single pusher repeatedly giving a little push every time the swing comes back is effectively positive feedback.

By analogy in AC halfwave rectification, the swing would not go past it's lowest point, but has to be pulled back up the same way again. Wasted energy and no resonance. I see nothing wrong with the wall analogy, as it's not describing resistance is it - where did you get resistance from? I was simply highlighting the fact that the swing will only go to the lowest point and stop - dead!

[lamare]

I don't think FF's tube corrosion is voltage related, otherwise we would all see this in our cells. Clearly this is a current density issue and nothing to do with any kind of dielectric breakdown voltage.

Look Lamare, you can't have it both ways here, either the dielectric oxide coating on the ss is breaking down at very low voltages - basically the voltage required to initiate electrolysis in the first place - and so not doing anything or it plays a part as a dielectric at higher voltages.

We are led to believe that Meyer was using voltages of thousands of volts, so how then is a dielectric that breaks down at around 1.5 volts ever going to play any part?

Good points, Farrah!

Remember you wrote this?

What concerns me is that this new design would appear to bear little resemblance to the 2002 model. Fair enough, designs can be modified and bettered, but in 2002 and electrical pulse of just 0.5 Amps was spoken about, with the output transistor having to be capable of switching 1 - 5 amps - very Meyer-like.

However now we see they are talking about 55 amps! Quite a heavy current draw and indeed a heavy current density, which would tend to suggest the unit is now operating more Faraday-like. So it would actually seem to be a complete turn-around as far as the technology is concerned... why? Did the 2002 design not actually do what it said on the tin?

No re-read what you just said:

either the dielectric oxide coating on the ss is breaking down at very low voltages - basically the voltage required to initiate electrolysis in the first place - and so not doing anything or it plays a part as a dielectric at higher voltages.

See the connections?

Probably not yet. I think you'd have to model the WFC like this:

On either sides, you have the capacitors between the fluid and the tube, because of the dielectric layer on the tubes. Now the characteristics of these capacitors depends mostly on the thickness of the layer. And these are non-linear capacitors. Below a certain voltage, depending on the thickness of the layer, they act as capacitors. Above that voltage, the dielectric breaks down and you get a shortcut. I have modelled this as a zener limiter:
Zener Diodes Information on GlobalSpec

Zener limiters are constructed with two opposing zener diodes. Each individual diode can limit one side of a sinusoidal waveform to Zener voltage while keeping the other side near zero. When the two opposing Zener diodes are paired, the waveform is limited to Zener voltage on both polarities.

So, you can actually have it both ways! And, more importantly, you have to make sure you use the one you want!!!

When you are talking about electric (or electromagnetic) resonance, electric standing waves, there is a very interesting relation between current and voltage, or field. At the hot spots in the current, the field or voltage has a dead point and vica versa.

You can see the difference when resonating a coil. When you drive a current trough the coil by making a tap somewhere, you drive the coil as if it were "closed" and you get a current hot spot at your terminal. When you drive the coil using high voltage taken of an *open* resonating coil, you get a voltage hot spot at your terminal.

So, depending on how you drive your WFC, you either drive it with low voltage, high current to get the resonance such that you deliver the current, or you drive it with high voltage, low current and you get the same resonance, only with a different phase, so you don't deliver the current yourself.

[Farrah Day]

LOL, and we yet have to talk about the possible chemical reactions taking place!

Lamare, are we at least agreeing that resonance can only be achieved by a sinosoidal waveform? And that a resonant cct requires both an L and C component?

I know that pulsed DC or rectified AC will be become a sinosoidal waveform when it sees an LC combination, and that LC combination will have a certain resonant frequency, but I guess what I'm struggling to see - and indeed have always struggled to see - is the WFC as a capacitor. And this is primarily because water so readily conducts. But perhaps as you point out, it is quite difficult to get a full grasp of what is going on given the complex nature of the package as a whole.

You see, getting the water molecules to resonate, I always thought to require so many GigaHz - microwave. And even then this does not cause it to dissociate into 2H2 and O2.

So even if the water is made to resonate, new questions then need to be asked... like how the hell is this actually creating reactions that evolve hydrogen and oxygen?

At resonance, can the secondary cct which includes the WFC and at least one inductor be made to carry very high current in a series LC combination, due to the Xl and Xc reactance cancelling, without demanding great power from the primary cct?

In this scenario, the water would not need to resonate for any particular reason at any particular frequency, and there would be high current available for electrolysis to occur. However, we now have another problem in that we have an AC signal across the WFC... where ideally for electrolysis to occur, we need DC... don't we?

Obviously a parallel LC cct would provide high voltage/minimum current, but this then would bring up yet more questions of how water would or could possibly dissociate by voltage alone!

Perhaps we should just leave Fast Freddy to work it all out for us - you never know he might even have shown a schematic before I'm old enough to be eligible for a free bus pass! I'm going for a lie down now!

[lamare]

I guess what I'm struggling to see - and indeed have always struggled to see - is the WFC as a capacitor. And this is primarily because water so readily conducts. But perhaps as you point out, it is quite difficult to get a full grasp of what is going on given the complex nature of the package as a whole.

Then by all means, check these how you can make a simple electrolytic capacitor:

Baking Soda Variable Electrolytic Capacitor. - "Baking Soda Variable Electrolytic Capacitor. - While experimenting with the borax rectifier, I found that everything also worked well using a baking soda solution (1 tablespoon baking soda to 2 cups of tap water). The aluminum strip shown in the above picture was cut from a piece of aluminum pie plate. I also discovered, with either the borax or baking soda rectifier, that it acted like a large capacitor as well as a rectifier when biased in the reverse direction. I had built a homemade electrolytic capacitor. I decided to do some experimenting and measurements to see what capacitance values could be obtained. I found it easy to get large values up to 100 uf. Since the capacitance is based on a thin film of aluminum oxide that forms on the aluminum plate, the capacitance can be varied by sliding the plate in or out of the baking soda soda solution. By using a wedge shaped piece of aluminum, I was able to get continuously variable capacitance ranges of up to 5000 to 1."

Borax or Baking Soda Rectifier and the glow. - "How To Observe The Glow From A Borax Or Baking Soda Rectifier."

This works because you have a thin dielectric layer on one of the plates. The other one, while also present, is that thin that it can be considered a shortcut. What happens is that what you think is a plate of the capacitor, the one with the very, very thin layer, moves over to the other side because the water is a conductor!.

So, then your actual capacitor plates are one of the metal plates, and the fluid, with only this thin dielectric layer in between. And because this layer is so thin, you get a large capacitance....

[Farrah Day]

Lamare I'm aware of how wet electrolytic capacitors work, but the problem then becomes something different doesn't it. If the water is no longer the insulating dielectric, is it not the case - as Grizli pointed out - that the water no longer sees a voltage drop?

If we have a dielectric oxide layer on one - or both - of the metal electrodes, the voltage is then dropped across that, and not the water, which then simply acts as a conducting medium - a liquid electrode. Which as far a Meyer is concerned is not a very favourable situation is it?*

I've been playing with this stuff for years and it often seems that as soon as you think you've found the solution, that very solution then creates another problem.

Edit: * Note: Not that I'm particularly taken by anything Meyer ever stated, but just trying to make a point that voltage in this situation would no longer be any kind of a force to effect the water.

[lamare]

Lamare I'm aware of how wet electrolytic capacitors work, but the problem then becomes something different doesn't it. If the water is no longer the insulating dielectric, is it not the case - as Grizli pointed out - that the water no longer sees a voltage drop?

If we have a dielectric oxide layer on one - or both - of the metal electrodes, the voltage is then dropped across that, and not the water, which then simply acts as a conducting medium - a liquid electrode.

When you apply DC, yes.

But capacitors also act as high pass filters. So, at higher frequencies they act as shortcuts. That is the effect Gray was using, and Meyer as well. So, I was wrong in that Meyer and Puharich should have used couple capacitors. They did, they just were at a place where I didn't see them

Now things really start to make sense in this part, too. It appears that wat FF is doing, is force a current trough his WFC because the dielectric on his tubes breaks. That explains why his tubes detoriorate, because the protection the dielectric provides works because no electrons can reach the metal inside, so the metal cannot oxidise.

So, if you want to get the fluid into resonance and want the electric field to power your WFC, you do want to use capacitative coupling and you do want to make sure your dielectric layer does not break down. So, on the one hand you want large capacitance between your tube and your fluid, and on the other hand you want the layer to be thick enough so it can withstand the voltages you torture it with.

In order to do that, aluminum would be a much better choice for your tubes as stainless steel, because with aluminum we know how to grow dielectric layers with just the right properties. You can grow them electrolytically in a bath with soda, just like when you make an electrolytic capacitor. Only in this case, you want a relatively thick layer on both tubes, so you would grow the layers using AC instead of DC. And if you use the circuitry you intend to use to drive your WFC with, the layer will automagically grow until the optimal thickness is reached...

See the exercise with the soda rectifier over here:
Borax or Baking Soda Rectifier and the glow.


Update: I spent some time collecting some relevant patents, a.o. by Puharich and Meyer. You can find them here: Bestandsoverzicht van /pdf/Patents/
Given that Puharich was a Dr. I think his explanations on how the water can be split will be very close to the truth. After all, he did do this and he did manage to come up with almost the right circuit. He missed only one detail...

Update 2: I also found the schematic of Puharichs AM modulator: Article:Free Electric Energy in Theory and Practice - PESWiki

Update 3: Puharichs water splitting patent can also be read online here:
Andrija Puharich: Water Decomposition by AC Elecrolysis >

[Farrah Day]

Lamare, I think part of the problem is we really don't know what we want do we? Do we really want the water to resonate? If so why? Irrespective of the claims to knowledge of the reactions and processes by various inventors, all we really have is various interpretations of what is or might be occuring.

Now things really start to make sense in this part, too. It appears that wat FF is doing, is force a current trough his WFC because the dielectric on his tubes breaks. That explains why his tubes detoriorate, because the protection the dielectric provides works because no electrons can reach the metal inside, so the metal cannot oxidise.

I'm not sure this particularly explains anything. I thought we'd covered this. At lower current levels you tend not to see this deterioration, but current is flowing even at very low voltages so the oxide coating must be passing current - the anode must be taking on electrons all the time! It's got to be the sheer amount of electrons that is doing the damage in FF's case.

Here's another problem. If we coat the electrodes with a DC impermeable coating, how then do ions exchange charges to become atoms and evolve as gases? They can't so that eliminates electrolysis as we know it... or gives rise to another flaw in our thinking.

All this would be a lot easier if we knew exactly what we were trying to achieve and why. But even after all this time we are still theorising on the behaviour of the WFC.

I've never accepted Meyer's version of high voltage pulling the water molecule apart into its constituent parts as he depicts in his technical brief, and clearly if the voltage resides across a dielectric and that dielectric is not the water, then this is the nonsense I've always suspected it to be.

Incidentally, I've not seen that Puharich schematic before - is that someone's head being electrolysed??

[lamare]

Lamare, I think part of the problem is we really don't know what we want do we? Do we really want the water to resonate? If so why? Irrespective of the claims to knowledge of the reactions and processes by various inventors, all we really have is various interpretations of what is or might be occuring.



I'm not sure this particularly explains anything. I thought we'd covered this. At lower current levels you tend not to see this deterioration, but current is flowing even at very low voltages so the oxide coating must be passing current - the anode must be taking on electrons all the time! It's got to be the sheer amount of electrons that is doing the damage in FF's case.

Here's another problem. If we coat the electrodes with a DC impermeable coating, how then do ions exchange charges to become atoms and evolve as gases? They can't so that eliminates electrolysis as we know it... or gives rise to another flaw in our thinking.

All this would be a lot easier if we knew exactly what we were trying to achieve and why. But even after all this time we are still theorising on the behaviour of the WFC.

I've never accepted Meyer's version of high voltage pulling the water molecule apart into its constituent parts as he depicts in his technical brief, and clearly if the voltage resides across a dielectric and that dielectric is not the water, then this is the nonsense I've always suspected it to be.

Incidentally, I've not seen that Puharich schematic before - is that someone's head being electrolysed??

I have been briefly trough Puharich's stuff over here:
Andrija Puharich: Water Decomposition by AC Elecrolysis >
His patents are also at my server: Bestandsoverzicht van /pdf/Patents/Puharich/

From what I read so far and what I saw from his other patents (did a patent search this afternoon) you can tell Puharich is a real scientist, which had proper equipment and also refers to scientific papers. He definately understood resonance, because he used that for curing patients. Something with hearing, etc. So, the basic resonance control circuits came from his medical patents.

He also talks about what electrolyte to use and how that is important to control the resonance inside the water. And he is talking about how the molecule structure of water is changed, based on QM IIRC.

So, this suggests to me Puharich knew what he was talking about and his work is well worth further study.

So, at this moment we have two possible ways to do this.

1. You don't buy the resonance stuff. Then you would go for high currents trough your WFC and thus no dielectric. As thin as possible. And then you would have to optimize your driving circuit and the coils along the way Gray did.

2. You do buy the resonance stuff, or at least want to give it a try. Then you would have to optimize your circuitry such that you get the resonance needed as efficiently as possible. Then Puharich is the one to study and replicate. The only important thing I can see so far to change in his system is to move the rectifier *after* the insulation transformer.

[smallengtech]

Hello everyone

I have been lurking around the forums for over a year and have learned a few things by reading different post by all of you. I would consider myself to be a novice when it comes to electronics but have been a maintenance tech on outdoor power equipment to heavy jets for 15+ years. I hope that I might be able to contribute some ideas in regards to Meyer's system based on what he says in his tech brief. What I do not know is if this would be the proper thread to post in considering the topic or if I should start a new one.

Farrah
The schematic that Lamare posted is Puharich's circuit for helping the hearing impaired to be able to hear tones and in turn speech. Not for electrolysis of the cranium capacitor.

Smallengtech

[HairBear]

Hello smallengtech! My guess is this topic is primarily about Fast Freddie's work and since it is a water fuel cell design, Meyer's name gets mentioned. Start a new thread and let us read your ideas.

[RAMSET]

Well If fast Freddie figures out how to put this in his truck,he'll be in like Flynn

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...ecrets-48.html
post 1435 [a must see]
Chet

[Farrah Day]

Farrah
The schematic that Lamare posted is Puharich's circuit for helping the hearing impaired to be able to hear tones and in turn speech. Not for electrolysis of the cranium capacitor.

Smallengtech

Yes, sorry SmallT, that was an attempt at humour on my part.

Lamare, I concluded long ago that Puharich is far more credible than Meyer in terms of the science and electronics. In fact I have always considered Meyer's interpretations of the science and his technical briefs as utter gibberish. In my eyes, if anything, Meyer's science - or lack thereof - only adds misinfo and confusion to the mix.

That said, we surely have to take a leap of faith with Puharich. I believe that he suggests that the angle of the hydrogen bonds on the oxygen atom in a water molecule are altered to in effect become more rigid, less flexible and so more easily broken. But how much faith can we put in his interpretation of things?

I have to say though, I would be a lot more comfortable with Puharich if he hadn't become involved in parapsychology, and the likes of Uri Geller. For me at least, this gave me doubts about his credibility as a serious scientist. Spoon-bending, mind reading and teleportation.

[smallengtech]

Farrah
A cranium capacitor was my attempt at humor as well.

To Lamare and All: Thanks for the response. I have stared my thread http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...ead.php?t=6400

Thanks again

Smallengtech

[lamare]

Lamare, I concluded long ago that Puharich is far more credible than Meyer in terms of the science and electronics. In fact I have always considered Meyer's interpretations of the science and his technical briefs as utter gibberish. In my eyes, if anything, Meyer's science - or lack thereof - only adds misinfo and confusion to the mix.

That said, we surely have to take a leap of faith with Puharich. I believe that he suggests that the angle of the hydrogen bonds on the oxygen atom in a water molecule are altered to in effect become more rigid, less flexible and so more easily broken. But how much faith can we put in his interpretation of things?

I think the most important questions regarding Meyer and Puharich is: can we trust their observations and measurements? I think we can to a large extent. The question wether or not we can trust their interpretation of things is a completely different question, but there is nothing that stops us from making our own interpretation of their observations and measurements.


I found a few very interesting details in Puharichs stuff:
Andrija Puharich: Water Decomposition by AC Elecrolysis >

First of all, he used a dielectric in between is electrodes:

The space between the two electrodes contains two lengths of tubular Pyrex glass, shown in Figures 2 and 3. The metal electrode surface in contact with the water solution are coated with a nickel alloy.

I was astonished to read this:

There is an `Open Circuit` reversible threshold effect that occurs in Component III due to water polarization effects that lead to half wave rectification and the appearance of positive unipolar pulses;

A secondary effect of the change in the RC constant of water on the wave form shows up as a full half wave rectification of the carrier wave indicating a high level of polarization of the water molecule in tetrahedral form at the outer electrode.

So, that's where is rectifier is! In his WFC

And that is a well known effect:
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GlowExper.pdf

A blue-green glow has been observed on electrodes of high voltage electrolytic cells and electrolytic rectifiers. [1] [2] Electrodes to create the blue-green glow can be made from metals like Ni, Zn, Ti, Al or Zr that form insulating oxides. The glow has been created in cells containing a weak electrolyte like Pickling Lime (CaO), Baking soda, sodium metasilicate, or acetic acid, by gradually increasing the AC voltage through them typically to 200 - 400 V AC. Zn can only be conditioned to about 76 volts. As the electrodes are “conditioned” using high voltage AC they begin to act like opposed diodes and the cell then acts like a capacitor with a low current bypass resistor.

http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm

In the early days of amateur radio, the dc plate voltage power supply for the transmitter, was often made using homemade rectifiers. From what I have read, these rectifiers would usually consist of an aluminum and lead electrode in a jar of Twenty Mule Team Borax solution. Borax is another name for sodium tetraborate. The aluminum becomes the cathode after a forming process of applying some ac current through the rectifier. Often, many jars were used in order to accomodate high voltages. It has been reported from various sources, that these rectifiers would also emit a faint glow when in operation.

Let me just say that based on this, Meyer and Puharich's interpretation of what happens inside the water does not convince me at all. Another thing that points in this direction is the desired frequencies reported. I couldn't find anything by Meyer himself, but found this:

Stanley Meyer: Water Fuel Cell

here are two primary frequencies that produce the best results. They are: 14,372 Hz and 43,430 Hz. The former is about 50% more efficient, but it seems that just about any frequency between 9 KHz and 143,762 KHz works quite well. (1) This is because the nature of the wave form ( a spike ) is rich in harmonics and one of them is bound to be close to one of the two primary frequencies.

Use of permanent magnets may also increase efficiency. I'll give you the outcome of that attempt in my next letter along with the plans for what I hope to be a much improved version.

Note: Sub-harmonics of the two primary frequencies at which dissociation will occur:

43430 Hz 143762 HZ
SUBHARMONIC SUBHARMONIC
1st 21715 HZ 1st 71881 HZ
2nd 14476.67 HZ 2nd 47920.67 HZ
3rd 15517.5 HZ 3rd 35840.1 HZ
4th 8686 4th 28752.4 HZ

*1500 VOLTS IS THE MINIMUM REQUIRED FOR MOLECULAR RINGING TO BEGIN.

And Puharich:

The wave form now automatically shifts to a form found to be the prime characteristic necessary for optimum efficiency in the electrolysis of water and illustrated in FIG. 11. In the wave form of FIG. 11, the fundamental carrier frequency, fc = 3980 Hz., and a harmonic modulation of the carrier is as follows:

1st Order Harmonic Modulation (OHM) = 7960 Hz.
2nd Order Harmonic Modulation (II OHM) = 15,920 Hz.
3rd Order Harmonic Modulation (III OHM) = 31,840 Hz.
4th Order Harmonic Modulation (IV OHM) = 63,690 Hz.

These don't really match, which suggests that the desired frequencies reported actually tell more about the construction of the cell then about the way the electrolysis is performed.

I think the electrolysis is pretty normal and the key is into how to get the power to do it, which has everything to do with the electric waves and (ion) currents going trough the fluid.


The final thing that is very interesting in Puharich's is this, "an illustration of pearl chain formation":

This shows his WFC from above and this is what he says about this:

What is believed to be happening in this IV OHM effect is that each of the four apices of the tetrahedron water molecule is resonant to one of the four harmonics observed. It is believed that the combination of negative repulsive forces at the outer electrode with the resonant frequencies just described work together to shatter the water molecule into its component hydrogen and oxygen atoms (as gases). This deduction is based on the following observations of the process through a low power microscope. The hydrogen bubbles were seen to originate at the electrode rim, 4', of FIG. 3. The bubbles then moved in a very orderly `pearl chain` formation centripetally (like the spokes of a wheel) toward the center electrode, 1' of FIG. 3. FIG. 12 shows a top view of this effect.

The rim 4 is the housing of the WFC. So, why does he say these originate at the electrode rim, while he draws them a bit away from that??

And how does he know these are hydrogen bubbles just looking trough a microscope? Why aren't these hydrogen + oxygen??? I mean, if the water molecules are shattered then we should get both, right?

Update:
Compare the "pearl chain" formation with this:
CYMATICS - Visible Sound

Dr. Jenny took the idea of the Chladni plate but went on to excite it using precisely measured vibrations (cps - Hertz) and amplifications (volume) via a piezoelectric effect using a crystal oscillator and then to cover the plate with various substances and finally to document his results in both photographs and films. He researched this phenomena for 14 years. The results are truly awe inspiring, breathtaking, most inspiring and enlightening.

More on Cymatics, including some video's here:
The Wave Phenomena of Cymatics

I have seen some of the video's by Jenny. Very interesting and entertaining!