Future Energy hydroxy cell

[eclipz]

When i first started to watch his videos i was like OMG hes the savior of the world there will be school with hes name and town and roads. But then after a few videos the expectation was not the same. If u have something like that you got two choice, sell it or give it free there's nothing more to do. After reading what UncleFester said that he didn't show them the schematics and hes looking for potential investors its all clear to me hes an scammer that's all. Nothing new it happens in the past it will happens in the future. That's all i gotta say in this topic. I'm not going to post any more videos of fast freddy.



Keep the good work up.
eclipz

[Farrah Day]

Well, in each video he still claims he's going to fully open source it, but I daresay that wouldn't go down too well with potential investors. But that doesn't bother me really. Investors would either get fleeced or the thing works. Even if we don't get the full details, if the thing is proved to work then with a little perseverance we would be able to replicate it sooner or later, knowing that our efforts would not be in vain.

What concerns me, is why have 3 videos now disappeared? And in those now deleted tube tuning videos, he never stated what frequency he was trying to tune the tubes to and why. They would have been my first questions in relation to tuning.

I know I'm being hard on the guy, but the sad truth is, we have not yet been shown anything from which to replicate the device and it's all becoming a bit of a drag. And the longer he draws this out the more sceptical I'll become.

[UncleFester]

Ah yes, Tad Johnson, I thought the name rang a bell, I remember reading something with your name on it a few years back.

It still could be just a basic PWM providing both those frequencies couldn't it.

Are you due to see the unit again? Another demo?

Aye, just two channel PWM most likely. I would have killed for a scope shot to the switches. These guys are keeping us busy right now working on a solid state unit and winding coils for our next high voltage pulse motor test, so I don't think they will be sending anyone but the Nasa guy over there if they go back again.

Tad

[lamare]

This is the Tad (Johnson) who has been around since the 90's working on Meyer H2 systems and high voltage Gray systems.

Then I hope you are willing to check my theories out on how this stuff is supposed to work and let me (us) know what you think. I think I finally got the answer to how Gray, Meyer *and* Puharich did it, all using the same principles :

Article:Free Electric Energy in Theory and Practice - PESWiki

[lamare]

Was it just bad luck that his planned demo never took place... ??

I don't think so. To be completely honest, I think they simply do not understand how this stuff is really supposed to work, just like Meyer and to a certain extent even Puharich. As we have discussed, it really makes a difference how thick your dielectric layers on your tubes are, and how you tune your coils and such in order to get the power. This is pretty complicated stuff you need a good RF engineer for to get it right. Without that, IMHO, you are lucky to get one prototype working more or less by accident.

And you see that with Meyer and Gray too. They got something working, but were unable to make reliable replications of their own systems, because they did not understand the working principles behind it.

Now I don't say this to claim that I know it all and got it all right, but I do think the stuff I dug up so far and the theories I shared so far will lead to the answers we need, because things start making sense. And I know the devil is in the details, but once you know what to aim for, you will get there. If you have no idea what is supposed to be going on, you will be running in circles for ages only to get results on one of those rare lucky days...

[UncleFester]

Then I hope you are willing to check my theories out on how this stuff is supposed to work and let me (us) know what you think. I think I finally got the answer to how Gray, Meyer *and* Puharich did it, all using the same principles :

Article:Free Electric Energy in Theory and Practice - PESWiki

Looking at it now. I can attest that the WFC is not a linear capacitor, and horrid leakage, which is the first big hurdle with that system, overcoming the losses in order to get the process working. Was a real night mare to tell you the truth. In fact I later started placing small caps in parallel with the cell in order to keep it stable and more linear, which helps a bit. Otherwise the capacitance floats all over the place and never really stabilizes.

[Farrah Day]

Tad, I'd certainly settle for verification of the claims by the guy from NASA... as long as he is a retired scientist and not a retired NASA janitor, lol!

Lamare, I think you're doing a great job. I may not agree with all you say or suggest, but it certainly offers new perspectives on things.

As I keep emphasising, the real problem is, other than producing loads of gas, we don't really know what we are trying to achieve, do we? We don't even know exactly what conditions are required to achieve the claims.

How is the water being influenced by various frequencies, voltage, current... if indeed it is at all. What reactions are actually taking place that would allow for extraordinary over-Faraday results?

We still haven't got a clue how this could be happening or the science behind it, which is why details such as frequencies, waveforms and the appropriate schematic are so crucial. Without the critical details we could play around with this until the cows come home and never see results - and I've quite a few years of playing around with this stuff and not seeing results to know that!

There is simply so much still unknown or unwritten about all this that we are still not in a position to say, oh, this reaction and that is occuring, so to induce or enhance it, we need to do this and that. One crucial piece of the puzzle is all it might take, but as yet it's eluded us.

If we can get even just one confirmed replication then we can sort ot the science later. But we need details.

[lamare]

We still haven't got a clue how this could be happening or the science behind it, which is why details such as frequencies, waveforms and the appropriate schematic are so crucial. Without the critical details we could play around with this until the cows come home and never see results - and I've quite a few years of playing around with this stuff and not seeing results to know that!

Normal electrolysis is done by performing two half reactions:
Electrolysis of water - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reduction at cathode: 2 H+(aq) + 2e− → H2(g)
Anode (oxidation): 2 H2O(l) → O2(g) + 4 H+(aq) + 4e−

What is essential for this to happen is that electrons have to be transferred from one half reaction to the other and that it takes energy to do this.

I think the question wether or not this process can be done using standing (electric) waves inside the fluid, which are certainly capable of delivering the required energy, is this:

Do the electrons have to go trough an electrical circuit no matter what?

Can't they just "jump over" if the energy needed to do that is available in the shape of an electric (and/or magnetic) field?

If your answer is "No", then why do you think this is necessary?
After all, the reaction the other way, i.e. the burning of the fuel, can certainly be performed without the need for wires and the like.....

[lamare]

How to drive your WFCs...

Based on all that has been discussed here, I think this is how to drive your WFCs in principle:

Article:Free Electric Energy in Theory and Practice - PESWiki

Since the WFC should be considered as being a resonant cavity, in Meyers words, we should match the resonance frequency of the driving coils to the resonance frequency of the WFCs we want to drive. Since we want to drive the while thing from the electric field, without having to provide current ourselves, we have to make sure everthing is in balance and therefore we have to drive two identical loads out of phase, such that we can tap a signal somewhere that we can use to maintain the resonance in the WFCs with trough a feedback circuit, basically as Puharich did.

With this, you can choose what kind of signal you want to feed your WFCs with. If you want to drive them with current, then you have to make sure your driving coils are in quarter wave resonance. If you want to drive them with voltage, you have to make sure your driving coils are in half wave resonance.

So, have fun with this and make it happen!

[lamare]

I believe they said it was Sodium hydroxide or KOH, one of the two.

Puharich talks about using weak electrolytes:

The Puharich papers on electrolysis

The Component III water solution is more properly speaking ,ideally a 0.1540 Molal Sodium Chloride solution, and such is a weak electrolyte.

Andrija Puharich: Water Decomposition by AC Elecrolysis >

The most precise way to measure the applied energy from Component I to Component II and Component III is to measure the power, P, in watts, W. Ideally this should be done with a precision wattmeter. But since we were interested in following the voltage and current separately, it was decided not to use the watt meter. Separate meters were used to continuously monitor the current and the volts.

This is done by precision measurement of the volts across Component III as root mean square (rms) volts; and the current flowing in the system as rms amperes. Precisely calibrated instruments were used to take these two measurements. A typical set of experiments using water in the form of 0.9% saline solution 0.1540 molar to obtain high efficiency hydrolysis gave the following results:

rms Current = I = 25mA to 38 mA (0.025 A to 0.038 A.)

rms Volts = E = 4 Volts to 2.6 Volts

The resultant ration between current and voltage is dependent on many factors such as the gap distance between the center and ring electrodes, dielectric properties of the water, conductivity properties of the water, equilibrium states, isothermal conditions, materials used, and even the pressure of clathrates. The above current and voltage values reflect the net effect of various combinations of such parameters. When one takes the product of rms current, and rms volts, one has a measure of the power, P in watts.

P = I x E = 25 mA x 4.0 volts =100 mW (0.1 W)

and P = I x E =38 mA x 2.6 volts = 98.8 mW (0.0988 W)

At these power levels (with load), the resonant frequency of the system is 600 Hz (plus or minus 5 Hz) as measured on a precision frequency counter. The wave form was monitored for harmonic content on an oscilloscope, and the nuclear magnetic relaxation cycle was monitored on an XY plotting oscilloscope in order to maintain the proper hysteresis loop figure. All experiments were run so that the power in watts, applied through Components I, II, and III ranged between 98.8 mW to 100 mW.

This resonance however is achieved through control of two other factors. The first is the molal concentration of salt in the water. This is controlled by measuring the conductivity of the water through the built in current meter of Component I. There is maintained an idea ratio of current to voltage I/E = 0.01870 which is an index to the optimum salt concentration of 0.1540 Molal.

[Farrah Day]

Quote:
Normal electrolysis is done by performing two half reactions:
Electrolysis of water - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reduction at cathode: 2 H+(aq) + 2e− → H2(g)
Anode (oxidation): 2 H2O(l) → O2(g) + 4 H+(aq) + 4e−

What is essential for this to happen is that electrons have to be transferred from one half reaction to the other and that it takes energy to do this.

I think the question wether or not this process can be done using standing (electric) waves inside the fluid, which are certainly capable of delivering the required energy, is this:

Do the electrons have to go trough an electrical circuit no matter what?

Can't they just "jump over" if the energy needed to do that is available in the shape of an electric (and/or magnetic) field?

If your answer is "No", then why do you think this is necessary?
After all, the reaction the other way, i.e. the burning of the fuel, can certainly be performed without the need for wires and the like.....

That equation you show is only the final and ultimate part of the process, and hence is very lacking in detail.

Consider this. All we have in plain water is the ionic species, OH- and H+ (or H3O+). Water is continually ionising fro H2O into OH- and H+, and then back again. The O-H bond is the weak bond, we don't get 2H and O conveniently evolved when water dissociates.

I'm all for electric fields inducing greater ionisation, (more OH- and H+), but by itself this does not get us any gas evolving, and these ions will quickly re-associate back into water if left to their own devices.

So what we would need to happen would be the ionisation (OH- ,H+) stage, followed by somehow then breaking the OH- bond to leave O and H-. If the H- then had a greater affinity to bond with the H+, all is well. No doubt the lone oxygen atom would join with another oxygen atom to become a molecule, and hence we would end up with 2H2 and O2.

However, this is all complete conjecture, and I see no way that high current pulsed DC, a la FF, could play a part in that.

I just don't see FFs high current system having any similarities to my closed-loop electrolyser concept, which is more on the line of what you are suggesting.

[lamare]

I'm all for electric fields inducing greater ionisation, (more OH- and H+), but by itself this does not get us any gas evolving, and these ions will quickly re-associate back into water if left to their own devices.

I think you miss an important detail. When the fluid is in resonance, you not only have an electric field, but also an ion current going trough the fluid. The only thing is that this current goes back and forth *within* the fluid, so it's there but it doesn't reach your tubes...

See for example this figure:
Physics Answers | Resonance Frequency for RLC Ci, The figure shows voltage and current graphs for a series ci

The figure shows voltage and current graphs for a series RLC circuit.

There's a phase difference between current and voltage, which is also present in standing waves inside a medium, such as a fluid! The areas where you have high voltage, you have low current and the areas where you have high current, you have low voltage....

Update: this is a better resource:
Chapter 15: Antennas

An antenna, which will exactly support a standing wave from end to end, is called a resonant antenna.

Figure 15-2 shows the current and voltage distribution on a full-wave conductor. You will notice that again the voltage maxima occur at the end of the conductor and the current there is zero. The distribution is more complex however and a voltage maximum/current minimum occurs at the centre of the conductor. In this case we would feed the antenna with a low impedance source at either of the voltage minima occurring at the ¼ and ¾ wavelength points.

So, this is the current/voltage distribution you would want in your WFC...

[Farrah Day]

I think you miss an important detail. When the fluid is in resonance, you not only have an electric field, but also an ion current going trough the fluid. The only thing is that this current goes back and forth *within* the fluid, so it's there but it doesn't reach your tubes...

I am missing the point... what does this achieve in our WFC?

There's a phase difference between current and voltage, which is also present in standing waves inside a medium, such as a fluid! The areas where you have high voltage, you have low current and the areas where you have high current, you have low voltage....

Granted Lamare, but now relate this to the creation of hydrogen and oxygen! Exactly what reactions are you expecting or suggesting brings us to gases evolving?

So, this is the current/voltage distribution you would want in your WFC...

Why??

[lamare]

Granted Lamare, but now relate this to the creation of hydrogen and oxygen! Exactly what reactions are you expecting or suggesting brings us to gases evolving?

What difference would the path the current takes make?? If you have the current, you have the reactions, right?

I mean, you need a current. Fine. With normal electrolysis you force it trough your wires and your plates. Now you let it flow inside the fluid. What difference does that make for the reactions by which you create your gasses??

If you have a current, you have a current. What more could you wish for???

[Farrah Day]

What difference would the path the current takes make?? If you have the current, you have the reactions, right?

No!

I mean, you need a current. Fine. With normal electrolysis you force it trough your wires and your plates. Now you let it flow inside the fluid. What difference does that make for the reactions by which you create your gasses??

If you have a current, you have a current. What more could you wish for???

I see. Unfortunately it doesn't quite work like that. If it did gases would continually evolve from water due to self-ionisation and intermolecular movements alone.

This I feel is where we really start to see things differently due to our individual knowledge bases and personal experience.

It's not so much about current flowing as charge exchanging. Current flow through the fluid is ionic, OH- and H+. Why would these two ionic species swap charges rather than simply bond to neutralise... as we know they do? We may not need current, what we do need is a charge exchange medium... or another mechanism entirely.

The reaction or reactions that require the least energy will take precedence, and it takes far less energy for OH- and H+ to recombine as a water molecule than it would to pull the electron off the hydroxy ion. In fact the recombination of ionic species to form the water molecule is exothermic.

But anyway, why are we even arguing the toss about this, Fast Freddy's on the cusp of divulging the secrets to us all!