None Electrolytic Splitting Of H2o

[Aaron]

crystal tolerance

Looking at some 120MHz and 20MHz crystals available:

Frequency Tolerance: ± 50ppm (this is for both 20MHz and 120MHz crystals)

So the 20MHz crystal could be off by 1000hz and the 120MHz one could
be off by as much as 6000hz (either + or - of course). Is my interpretation
of ± 50ppm accurate?

A 20MHz crystal would have the range of 19.999MHz to 20.001MHz.

So a 120MHz crystal would have a range of 119.994MHz to 120.006MHz.
The entire range is still within the general frequency range we want.

Seeing that the 20MHz still has some deviation overall, even if not as
much as a 120MHz crystal, it still has deviation meaning according to
Mike's diagram, the water still splits from this and the water would appear
not to care about the 20MHz crystal deviation.

-------------

edit: And, this depends on what deviation means. If the tolerance indicates
how much off from the rated MHz it is and if it is off, the frequency stats
consistent but could be off from 20MHz or 120MHz permanently.

Or does the crystal's frequency roam around while running deviating from
the rated spec as it is being used as a trigger signal.

[Aaron]

Pll

Mike mentioned something to keep it tuned.
That means some kind of PLL phase locked loop
circuit - does this take out all the deviation
in the crystal itself?

This PLL isn't in the diagram but Mike did mention
it. I'm only guessing he is referring to a PLL.

[Vickers]

Good Thread

Here is something of interest.
My uncle is a WW2 veteran and has a wealth of info stored in his head. Which is easily accessed via a catalyst of ethanol and coke. LOL
Anyway...After a few catalyst he confided that soldiers in need of a hot drink with lack of combustibles would use 2 army issue spoons and the antenna of a army issue field radio to boil a cup of water in seconds.
The spoons were opposed to each other like a couple of parabolic sound reflection dishes that are commonplace at technology museums.
A whisper can be heard 50 yards away in the opposing dish etc...

[lamare]

Excess energy

I'd like to add the following argument to this discussion: If you want excess energy in your system, IMHO you will have to use at least full wave antenna's. The more standing waves that fit in you antenna's, the more excess energy you will get, because you only have to drive one half wave yourself, the rest is powered by the electric field for free. That is one of the secrets the scientific community won't tell you. They say that resonance does not deliver energy and that it's just a matter of "impedance matching" to explain why antenna's have a gain. Well, Tesla nocked out a complete power plant using resonance, so don't buy that B.S. that it's just "impedance matching".

[Duncan]

I’m trying to think along the lines of something that’s common and readily adaptable to our project without getting too bogged down in the mire of UHF engineering
So perhaps cannibalizing a UHF walkie talky would be a reasonable starting point. Most of the work is done already. We could simply change the Xtal for 20 MHz and peak the tuning; of course a linear amp would have to be stuck onto the end of it. A connection made from the oscillator would let us deal with the x6 120Mhz side of things,
Computer clocking circuit is perhaps adaptable also? I was a little off track with the “overtones” I had forgotten that only odd harmonics apply sorry I didn’t mean to lead anyone astray. I have worked at UHF but a long time ago. And that was “the state of the art” used at that time I was repairing these things NEN Gallery : 1970s radio I guess things have altered and advanced since then thank you Dr for a well directed nudge in the right direction.
Other things I am considering that could be altered are Beta 87A on PGX Handheld Transmitter I’ve Just searched UHF on eBay and think maybe such as this could be converted UHF Modulator RF 900 Channel 21-69 on eBay (end time 04-Oct-10 21:37:31 BST) to our cause. It would certainly be stable and it is up on the top frequency band we want to use. Just trying to get creative, and float a few ideas after all I’m sure lots of folks reading this would like to try this principle and the more the merrier as far as I concerned.
A few thousand cars popping about on water all at the same time would rattle a cage or two! Remember what Imhotep did with the fan? He adapted something that’s as common as mud. It’s what I’m trying to consider here if you get my gist.
After all there’s millions of TVs for instance all in the UHF band what about the old VHS tape machine in you garage for instance Its up there In the band we want and tunable if only to avoid cross channel interference usable??
Let’s bounce it about a bit. I don’t mind looking stupid... In fact I haven’t got much choice

[Aaron]

crystal oscillators

A crystal oscillator is under $5 and the circuit for the oscillator part
is like 10 parts... probably takes less time to build one than the time it
takes to cannibalize something else... possibly.

In either case, for under $10, there are "crystal oscillator modules"
available in a little package not much bigger than a crystal itself.
It has the entire circuitry built in for the oscillator part of the circuit.

"crystal oscillator module" - Google Search

And another simple circuit that 'might' work:
Make your own oscillator modules!

[Duncan]

Hi Aaron thanks for that! The problem I anticipate is matching, it is nice and easy to imagine a 20 MHz or even a 120 Mhz oscillator doubling and tripling and us getting our lovely 720 MHz sine wave at the end. The trouble is It’s a block diagram, To give us a basic Idea.
In practice the construction is going to be difficult, effectively each stage has to be tuned to the next stage, (just like the ATU tunes to the magnetic loop effectively) impedance matching and of course stray capacitance can throw every thing to hell,
Amplifiers and /or attenuation between the stages, and as the good Dr has pointed out circuitry with high rejection of unwanted frequencies and admittance of our sine wave need to be employed, distortion of any sort destroys what we are attempting. A pure sine wave locked at 720 MHz heterodyning with 120 MHz
Distortion = mismatch and spurious signals all over the place (remember Stan’s TVI) also any spurious content will not fracture water.
Of course things may have changed since I worked in this field and these multiplier chips (which I have never had anything to do with) might just make everything easy (I hope so) but I’m not holding my breath. And If I can spot something that I think may adapt and someone else has done the design work and matching and solved all the stability aggravations, frequency drift, and distortion well I’ll ask on this forum there seems to be plenty of very skilled people here in every discipline.
And I’m sure they all want to see it done. As I read somewhere it’s been a long time … far to long!

[Duncan]

Hi Lamar yes you’ll notice that I brought up the subject of “gain” a little earlier with relation to the Yagi and lightly posed the proposition that the tubes Stan demonstrates in his WFC may actually be a parasitic array in disguise.
With those slots you see cut in the tops of the tubes actually tuning the forward and reflective elements if you get my drift.
The reason why there is this phenomenal gain available from a Yagi? Like you, I’m not sure I buy the resonance theory but it holds up to a point.
I was going to link here to a part of a lecture by Eric Dollard in which he demonstrates and explains that when tuning longitudinal wave the VSWR Is Indeed exactly the inverse of that which we tune an EM wave to. All in all the bits of this jigsaw seem to be falling into place.
Here lies your free energy if I read you right. In fact if I understand correctly somewhat more than ½ the energy will be free as this longitudinal wave is moving much faster than light speed.
If I find this link again Lamare I’ll post it for you

[Duncan]

Sorry Aaron I didn’t see your question for a while. Yes In my opinion loading and matching are all important we start with a nice clean Sine wave and we have to keep it like that or else we end up with a random uncontrollable “Mush” for want of a better description.
You see where the Dr is asking about F1 and F2, F1+F2 and F1 – F2 this is a truncated form of fouries theorem and really it’s about as far as I got. But it’s basically saying if you add sine waveforms these algebraic sums are what you end up with. The Dr like me is curious to know if this is going to be fed into the magnetic loops. And get blasted at the water as is.
All these frequencies and the math’s is of course are worked out in a” perfect world” every time you mismatch or load your sine wave it tends to distort after its distorted you end up with an F1 and F2 and the harmonics which again become F1 and F2, F1+F2 and F1 – F2 you amplify this and try to feed it to the next stage very quickly you can end up with a meaningless mess of signal. I’m not of the caliber of Mike or the good Doc and my explanation is perhaps not pukka, but I’m sure you can see how things can get out of control very quickly. And why the Doc stressed the high Q rejection and admittance circuitry.
Its UHF radio engineering and it’s a very different beast to the digital world.
When your oscillator is running I’m not quite sure if this makes sense but you need to touch it very lightly. Preferably a harmonic (which takes a lot less power to deliver than the fundamental) into a high matched impedance so the load effectively remains constant with little or no reflected power and so no distortion and so no spurious signals. Right or wrong that’s more or less how I see it.

[DrStiffler]

I'd like to add the following argument to this discussion: If you want excess energy in your system, IMHO you will have to use at least full wave antenna's. The more standing waves that fit in you antenna's, the more excess energy you will get, because you only have to drive one half wave yourself, the rest is powered by the electric field for free. That is one of the secrets the scientific community won't tell you. They say that resonance does not deliver energy and that it's just a matter of "impedance matching" to explain why antenna's have a gain. Well, Tesla nocked out a complete power plant using resonance, so don't buy that B.S. that it's just "impedance matching".

@lamare

If you want excess energy in your system, IMHO you will have to use at least full wave antenna's.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you said here? If you are referring to Mike's injection system, its not an issue of excess energy, it a molecular vibrational issue. This will cause a vibration of the bonds as Mike explained with his stick analogy. If you need to reference it back to 'The Great Tesla' then think of what he supposedly did with his little vibration generators. A very small oscillation would randomly set into a sustained and feedback loop which would lead to the disruption of mass.... Unless I have missed what Mike is doing and saying the excess energy is gained via the gas liberation in excess of the input energy from the RF system?

resonance does not deliver energy and that it's just a matter of "impedance matching" to explain why antenna's have a gain.

I would very much appreciate you directing me to any work that states that antenna's are gainful? The obtain the gain if you will by reducing the field over which the energy is directed. If this has been shown otherwise I would be more than willing to relearn this part about antenna design.

nocked out a complete power plant using resonance, so don't buy that B.S. that it's just "impedance matching"

This is pretty general indeed. I would think that you should rather say that is certain circuits 'Impedance Matching is not necessary for maximal power transfer'. Of course if you pulse a circuit with a square wave in the proper way you can set it into a decaying (ringing) oscillation at its resonance point, regardless of the driving impedance so long as the drive does not load and so drag down the Q of the driven so that full ringing is not possible.

Further I don't think Tesla what Tesla did was all that significant when one considers the generation technology for the electrical grid at that time. It common office knowledge that the early office photocopiers would bump the service so much that it would disrupt office computers and often throw breakers. My view of some of his work is not all that significant when viewed today, granted he was a great experimenter and contributed heavily to what we have today, yet what about all the rest of the great men of that period??

[DrStiffler]

Mike! an additional question

Mike, I was wondering how you viewed the media, what I mean is do you consider it to be non-linear or linear?

In the SEC Theory the Lattice is a linear medium and return for my purpose is via Superposition rather than a mixing in a non-linear fashion. This only applies when looking at my last question of whether the to separate 120 and 720 are doing the work or if it is a synthesis of the two primaries.

[Michael John Nunnerley]

I'm back

Well I am back from my trip which was quite eventfull to say the least. First I will explain the frequencies.

The frequencies I chose could have been other frequencies, but, the difference between them is important.

If you look at the first frequency of 120mhz, the secound is 6X to 720mhz. We now look at the heterodyning frequencies:-

Without filtering out we will get many orders of exact frequencies with a finite space between them. If we were to start with only 3X difference between these two frequencies we would get a different result.

Example:-

100mhz and 300mhz

200 400
200 600
400 800
400 1200

100mhz and 600mhz


500 700
200 1200
1000 1400
400 2400
2000 2800

Now you can see the difference with a 6X spacing rather than a 3X spacing. Each new frequency will interreact in a heterodyning mode as well and you need to run this through a computor program to see the full frequency spectrum.

Mike

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Mike, I was wondering how you viewed the media, what I mean is do you consider it to be non-linear or linear?

In the SEC Theory the Lattice is a linear medium and return for my purpose is via Superposition rather than a mixing in a non-linear fashion. This only applies when looking at my last question of whether the to separate 120 and 720 are doing the work or if it is a synthesis of the two primaries.

I think the last post answers your question, I view it as linear.

I view the finite space between the frequencies is like a fulcrum point and that point is the breaking point.

I have not had time to go through all the questions yet, but I will do now and try to answer over then next few hours.

Mike

[Michael John Nunnerley]

@Michael
You may find this interesting;

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2003/hydrogen-0924.html

Hydrogen bonds in liquid water are broken only fleetingly — PNAS

Thank you, very interesting

Mike

[Michael John Nunnerley]

20mhz cristal

@All

I chose this because it is quite stable at that frequency without using an oven to maintain the cristal temperature.

At higher frequencies the cristals are very thin and move frequency depending on temperature.

As Dr. Stiffler has said, you can use other means to obtain these frequencies, all you need at the end of the day is a good clean signal, the trick is not in the electronics, it is in the cell where these signals interreact. I do not think that the exact frequencies of 120mhz and 720mhz is important, what is important is the spacing "6X"

Mike