None Electrolytic Splitting Of H2o

[nvisser]

Thank you Mike
This clears up most of my questions

[Slovenia]

Updated PDF File

I have attached the updated file of, "The Non Electrolytic Splitting Of The Water Molecule" thread.

Updated Doc with Energetic Forum link has just been uploaded.

Latest File Was Updated Through February 13, 2011 & Uploaded February 13, 2011.

[Farrah Day]

Hi Mike

I've been following with interest, wondering where this thread will end up going. I see there is a keen and eager following, but I also see that no one is asking the right questions.

I know you and many others consider me to be a prize 'thorn in the side', but I learned long ago to question everything and not to trust the answers to those questions until they are verified as fact. And nowhere does this philosophy apply more than on these forums, so you'll forgive me for never taking anyone at their word.

The only thing I'm aware of similar to what you are here stating is science fact, is the Kanzius discovery, but of course he used brine and we know 13.56MHz.

Are you saying that this can happen with just plain water? If so, exactly what reactions do you suggest are taking place to produce hydrogen and oxygen... and why? I did ask, but you never answered about whether the water was being caused to ionise. You see I can understand the water being induced to ionise by EMR, but that does not itself give rise to hydrogen and oxygen, so how are the gases being produced?

Looking at what people are posting it seems that everyone simply thinks that water will fall apart into oxygen and hydrogen when exposed to so many MHz of EMR. I find it really hard to fathom why no one is questioning - or even considering - the chemistry.

Now, being a stickler for details, you said that this is not theory but fact, so have you a link to anything that can support this statement... or is this to be taken on blind faith?

I would really appreciate a considered response to my questions... after all you do say it is science fact.

[Michael John Nunnerley]

@ Faraday

You have answered your own question as far as who has done this with Rf and it was not only with salt water, it was tested with other water formulas as well. The frequency was mixed and heterodyned in the salt water and other chemical mixes also proved to work but at different degrees.

A brine solution works well with radio frequencies and is one of the best in what I have shown, although other chemical compounds will work as well. Pure distilled water does not work, you need a crystaline compound, this does not form any other gas, it is a catalyst and remains in the water molecule. Copper sulphate also works, it is all to do with the absorbtion of the radio waves and not reflection.

Puharich was the first and he used also brine at a concentration equal to sea water. Meyer in the end copied Puharich but tried to disguise it. I have copied to a certain extent but have changed certain things that work better for me.

You really need to read Puharich very well, he gives quite an honest description, but his reasons are a little flawed on what was happening or that was his security. The trick is if I can call it that, the heterodyning has to be done in the water and not before, it is the absorbtion of the two RF signals that creates this and breaks those bonds as I have explained before.

I think that other frequencies can be used, I have chosen VHF and UHF as I am well conversed as I am a radio ham, G6GVA in England, but since changed as I live in Spain, you can look up my call sign if you like.

Mike

[DrStiffler]

@ Faraday

You have answered your own question as far as who has done this with Rf and it was not only with salt water, it was tested with other water formulas as well. The frequency was mixed and heterodyned in the salt water and other chemical mixes also proved to work but at different degrees.

A brine solution works well with radio frequencies and is one of the best in what I have shown, although other chemical compounds will work as well. Pure distilled water does not work, you need a crystaline compound, this does not form any other gas, it is a catalyst and remains in the water molecule. Copper sulphate also works, it is all to do with the absorbtion of the radio waves and not reflection.

Puharich was the first and he used also brine at a concentration equal to sea water. Meyer in the end copied Puharich but tried to disguise it. I have copied to a certain extent but have changed certain things that work better for me.

You really need to read Puharich very well, he gives quite an honest description, but his reasons are a little flawed on what was happening or that was his security. The trick is if I can call it that, the heterodyning has to be done in the water and not before, it is the absorbtion of the two RF signals that creates this and breaks those bonds as I have explained before.

I think that other frequencies can be used, I have chosen VHF and UHF as I am well conversed as I am a radio ham, G6GVA in England, but since changed as I live in Spain, you can look up my call sign if you like.

Mike

@Michael
You may find this interesting;

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2003/hydrogen-0924.html

Hydrogen bonds in liquid water are broken only fleetingly — PNAS

[DrStiffler]

Mixing in non-linear medium

@Michael

I would propose a question for you?

Having f1 & f2 we would of course find f1, f2, f1+f2 and f2-f1. Now this of course is the simplest view. Now when you apply f1 and f2 to your cell, are you assuming this simple approach to f results or are you considering a superposition mode of operation?

With enough energy placed into the cell and we assume the non-linear mixing, would we not see a very large and somewhat high in energy content vast number of additional frequencies?

Thank, just food for thought....

[Michael John Nunnerley]

@Michael

I would propose a question for you?

Having f1 & f2 we would of course find f1, f2, f1+f2 and f2-f1. Now this of course is the simplest view. Now when you apply f1 and f2 to your cell, are you assuming this simple approach to f results or are you considering a superposition mode of operation?

With enough energy placed into the cell and we assume the non-linear mixing, would we not see a very large and somewhat high in energy content vast number of additional frequencies?

Thank, just food for thought....

Hi Dr. Stiffler

You are very right, you end up with many frequencies with a fine line between them. I will go into the fine line on Monday when I have come back fro a trip, must go now, people are waiting for me

Mike

[Farrah Day]

Mike

You have answered your own question as far as who has done this with Rf and it was not only with salt water, it was tested with other water formulas as well. The frequency was mixed and heterodyned in the salt water and other chemical mixes also proved to work but at different degrees.

I see, so all this is based on Kanzuis, so we're never talking about just water, but water with an electrolyte added. This has not been mentioned until now.

What is your source of all this information? I've followed the Kanzius discovery, and yes though I too believe it would possibly work with other electrolytes, I have never heard of such experiments. Will you cite a source of reference?

Puharich was the first and he used also brine at a concentration equal to sea water. Meyer in the end copied Puharich but tried to disguise it. I have copied to a certain extent but have changed certain things that work better for me.

You are saying that YOU have actually done this?

You really need to read Puharich very well, he gives quite an honest description, but his reasons are a little flawed on what was happening or that was his security. The trick is if I can call it that, the heterodyning has to be done in the water and not before, it is the absorbtion of the two RF signals that creates this and breaks those bonds as I have explained before.

You say that Puharich's reasoning was a little flawed. What then is your interpretation of what is happening?

Mike, the one question that I keep asking and the one you keep avoiding like the plague is about the reactions. I take it from your lack of response that you do not know or cannot suggest what chemistry is taking place then? But if this is so, how can you be so sure Puharich's reasoning was flawed?

You do not know whether or not the water is ionising... is this correct?

[Duncan]

Farrah … Michael speaks tacit volumes. The area of antenna’s, reflected power, parasitic elements and all the associated design is a specialist subject many very clever hams dedicate a great deal of their hobby hours experimenting in this area alone. I’m just a common or garden electrician and I assure you the field of RF is really alien to way we generally think of electricity. As I think about it now (many years after the fact) The way I (we) have been trained avoided crossing boundaries and so for instance “reflected power” and “standing wave” In RF engineering was taught as reactive power in electrical engineering.
And as for the longitudinal wave, I think we all know now that was just “buried” in both disciplines.
As for “blind faith” Of course not! Each stage can be studied; an old RSGB handbook seems to explain huge amounts to me. Michael is pointing the way to relevant links and so is the good Dr.
Pictures, working drawings, I would think not! He’s got a few more candles he’d like to blow out yet. and so of course if it can be avoided DON'T ASK. I don’t know if I personally have the skills to build the circuitry I see developing here particularly at UHF but I’m certainly starting to get my shopping list together and I’m going to give it a bloody good try!
Michael you should have a knighthood!





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[wings]

superradiance

[Slovenia]

Thanks

Duncan,

Thanks for all you have shared including your tactful hint to the Farrah.

Best Regards,
Slovenia

Farrah … Michael speaks tacit volumes. The area of antenna’s, reflected power, parasitic elements and all the associated design is a specialist subject many very clever hams dedicate a great deal of their hobby hours experimenting in this area alone. I’m just a common or garden electrician and I assure you the field of RF is really alien to way we generally think of electricity. As I think about it now (many years after the fact) The way I (we) have been trained avoided crossing boundaries and so for instance “reflected power” and “standing wave” In RF engineering was taught as reactive power in electrical engineering.
And as for the longitudinal wave, I think we all know now that was just “buried” in both disciplines.
As for “blind faith” Of course not! Each stage can be studied; an old RSGB handbook seems to explain huge amounts to me. Michael is pointing the way to relevant links and so is the good Dr.
Pictures, working drawings, I would think not! He’s got a few more candles he’d like to blow out yet. and so of course if it can be avoided DON'T ASK. I don’t know if I personally have the skills to build the circuitry I see developing here particularly at UHF but I’m certainly starting to get my shopping list together and I’m going to give it a bloody good try!
Michael you should have a knighthood!





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[Farrah Day]

Yeah, everyone is lovely and wonderful... knighthoods, medals of honour, etc, etc.... I get all that. All very nice, but does anybody actually want to discuss the science involved here?

Is anyone actually considering the science of this... or is everyone simply hopping on the bandwagon, happy to just heap on the praise and follow Mikes lead?

Thanks for all you have shared including your tactful hint to the Farrah.

What's this supposed to mean? What hint?

I'm simply questioning the effect the EMR is having. Forget all the fancy electronics to get the required EMR, the key to this is what reactions are taking place within the electrolytic solution.

Mike is yet to talk about this, which is where my personal interest lies and hence all the questions. In fact, if you look through this thread, the science involved has yet to even be touched upon. And it seems to me that rather a lot is simply being taken for granted by everyone.

Anybody else care to have a stab at the chemistry that takes us from water to oxygen and hydrogen?

Initially I thought Mike was talking about dissociating water without an electrolyte, but now we know this is not the case. So unless Mike brings something new to the table, then we have no more information than already provided by Kanzius... do we!

[Corey]

Nvisser & others,

I think we should perform a Meyer replication in as expedient a fashion as possible using just the most basic bare bones apparatus to get a good proof of concept device only. In other words just one or two tube set cell to start with. When we determine how to properly tune this arrangement and get a working prototype, we can build the cell as large and complicate as we like. In the mean time I think we need to utilize the KISS principle and keep the system as simple as possible.

I have a good acquaintance who has expended a lot of money working on the Meyer cell system over the past several years. I'm pretty sure this fellow will help us. He'd like to get his cells working too and he has many of them. So, I'll contact him and see what can be done. I'm sure I can get him to offer some advise on where we should start.


I don't want to trouble Michael Nunnerley to much for details which we can get somewhere else.

Best Regards,
Slovenia

It seems to me that it would be more simple (KISS) to get past the big electrolyser, and go directly to a Meyer like 'plug cell'. It just seems to me that it would be less bulky and less dangerous if all the reactions and bond breaking is being done in the cylinder, rather than pumping in the solution from a remote location.

[Duncan]

Hi Corey just trying to get a picture of the construction of such a thing in my head here, It has always seemed to me that as a rule of thumb the higher frequency a transmitter used the physically smaller the antenna becomes.
Because of course you must be “tuning” In relationship to the physical length of the wave.( speed of light)M/s = F(hz) x wavelengthM) If you’re vintage enough to remember the first generation of TVs when they used the VHF band perhaps you can remember the physical size of the aerial? Big very big.
As the skills at switching at relatively high speed improved, particularly in the line output and fly back section of TVs the manufacturers had to use a higher frequency band UHF, among other very important things this resulted in very much smaller antenna’s. Given this relationship of size/frequency perhaps you can see a logical conclusion for x rays?
Another thing to try and keep in mind if you’re trying to manufacture an aerial is the higher the frequency the more precise your measurement and manufacture has to be.
I’m an electrician and have little to do with RF and so if I ramble a bit around the subject with my limited understanding it just may just help others to get in this grove and if I miss the mark totally I’m sure a kindly lash will fall from some where on this forum!
First consider your TV connected to its aerial, The TV aerial set up is much the same (mathematically at least) to a transmitting aerial in reverse and so we can at least start to get a picture (and no I didn’t mean that pun) you go to the shop and you buy 75 ohm coax ??? Why 75 ohm. If you go and get your multi meter just where are you going to measure this 75 ohms? Incidentally in the olden days of VHF it used to be 50 ohms I mention this because perhaps we may be using VHF again sometime.
Anyway this 75 ohms is called the cables “Characteristic Impedance” Impedance really gives the game away it’s got to be related to frequency! Now let me introduce you to this little bit of theory called maximum power transfer(I know this is a DC example but the general principle remains and I KISS) Maximum Power Transfer Theorem Your TV aerial is carefully spaced and measured and shaped to be receptive to the wave lengths you wish to receive. Bend a few of those spikey things and your picture won’t be very good!
It’s actually a marvel of mathematics and engineering its just cheap as chips because its mass produced and we don’t give it a second thought. There is also “depending on how you view the subject” a lot of “gain” going on up there and Mr. Yagi is the guy who put that together How a Yagi Beam Antenna Works (I’ve really only put that link in because something is nagging at the back of my mind related to Meyers tubes and the yagi each element of the yagi has to be a tuned length and Meyers slots would be??) anyway in the scheme of things our TV aerial only has a tiny amount of power. So it’s unlikely you’re going to be lighting any light bulbs from it. The TV itself needs every scrap of this signal.It can get. If you yourself were actually that signal oscillating at 400 MHz and with a wave length of 75 cm looking out from the center of your 75 ohm home you would see you guessed it 75ohms! But only at UHF of course Maximum power transfer would allow all the power available into the cable. Having traveled down the cable you have to cross again into the TV again you see 75 ohms (by design).
And so in a perfect world you are aiming for Maximum power transfer from the aerial to the coax and maximum power transfer from the coax to the TV and all at 400Mhz (or whatever) of course If you reverse the operation and Transmit power and one of these links isn’t matched perfectly and you don’t get maximum power transfer the power has to go somewhere and it usually spills out all over the place and normally finds Its way to some heavy weight boxers TV who suspects your responsible for buggering up his sport.
This is why Mayer talks of TVI (television interference) This mismatch situation spews signal all over the place I think the official word is spurious (good word hey) and explains why you sometimes hear CBs and taxi’s on your landline, TV, radio whatever.
And so what happens if your antenna is Totally mismatched and as each full wave is only 75 cm long It isn’t hard to get it wrong No power is transmitted from the aerial at all It is all reflected back down the coax spurious signal is spewed out all over the waveband and Its very likely in fact almost a flying certainty that your transmitters amplifier will get “Cooked”
I like to think of these 75cm waves physically sitting on the antenna whilst trying to locate the connection point that is the Node of a wave. Can you Just Imagine the complications involved trying to design and manufacture at X-ray Cory? incidentally if you get near the feeder of a mismatched line you can light a fluorescent lamp off the standing wave just as I have recently seen Eric Dollard do, (love that guys delivery, I hope he’s OK)
Perhaps what the RF people call spurious has something of the linear about it?
This 10 or 15 watts being discussed here doesn’t sound much to an electrician but RF people can and do transmit around the world with ease with this power.
It can (and did in Mayers case until he got it under control) create absolute havoc.(This slip of tongue TVI would of course be a huge clue any radio guy as to what was happening and give the band away too!) The good Dr and Mike have tried to point out the difficulties pit falls and demands of this project that “faraday cage” is most important IMHO. In my ham fisted way I am trying to relate how I comprehend what is clearly being said and what is not being said.
A little Reading on the magnetic loop antenna reveals that it first came into widespread use as a transmitting medium because the German U Boat fleet discovered It could be used to transmit successfully without the need to surface.

[Duncan]

Farrah – I’d love to be able to!! But alas it’s a thing that officially “never happened” a case of “fraud” and it’s an impossible heresy as far as official science and chemistry is concerned... I believe Mayer did exactly what he said he did, and I’ve got little doubt Puharich got the job done before him. What about you?
Did they both know the chemical “nuts and bolts”? I don’t know they were certainly both very clever men and no doubt had formed their own conclusions.
But In the strict scientific sense where mathematical proof is all, perhaps not! I really don’t know they were both murdered before they flowered.
After all from the cause of magnetism to dowsing there are 1000s of enigmas; however all these things still demonstrably work!
Anyway the “fractured stick” thing does it for me! I’ve just about got enough nous to picture it which is good!!
I have read that the EM wave has yet to be satisfactory explained (never mind electric current) and that’s been in common use for better that 100 years. As for its concentrated heterodyne effect on H20 who knows?! If gentleman of the caliber of Mayer and Puharich demonstrated and lectured on their devices in front of hundreds I think you can assume it did something special,
Well first I’d like to try and reproduce it. What about you? We are talking buttons here in the scheme of things, I don’t think Stan or Andrja were lying cheats what do you think?
And you and Aaron please stop squabbling in the sand pit I bet you don’t speak like that when you’re out picking daisy’s together!
That it does happen I have no doubt, perhaps a shaper blade than mine knows why and who knows Farrah the answer may reveal itself to you in the merry banter
As this develops