More output current than input (Bedini SG + water)

[dR-Green]

I am noticing very strange things so I thought I'd share what I'm seeing in case maybe someone else has also experienced the same thing, or if not maybe it could be worth investigating further.

To explain a bit about what's going on, I went to a guy's house on thursday evening who mentioned Stan Meyer and had built a crude and simple water fuel cell, consisting of 4 short rods poking through the bottom of the cell. I did some research (youtube) on friday afternoon and returned to his house with my SG and hooked it up to his fuel cell. The thing worked and was producing hydrogen and oxygen bubbles.

So, now that I saw it was simple and worked, I came home and repeated the experiment with an even cruder cell by cutting 2 pieces of 6mm steel rods and put them in water in a glass jar, connected the output of the SG to each rod, and turned it on. The neons lit up, so I added salt as they slowly faded out until they went off. The voltmeter showed around 8.75v across the SG output, and 40v spikes on the scope. Some fizzing and a stream of small bubbles coming off the rod connected to the negative. The potentiometer works normally, as it would if the SG was connected to a battery, varying the frequency and current and what not. I haven't tried this test while measuring the input or output current so I don't know about the input or output. The rotor spins pretty fast, but I forgot to look at the frequency.

But this is where it gets strange. Friday I went shopping for some steel tubes, I got different sizes mainly to try a Joe Cell, but I built a simple thing for basic electrolysis I thought using a 6mm rod placed inside a 10mm tube, which are both negative (the rod extends out of the water for connecting), which fits inside a 25mm tube which is positive (as per Stan Meyer's basic design), and the whole thing is held together with plastic bottle tops on either end, with appropriate holes cut in them for obvious reasons.

So I dip this contraption in the water. No more small fizzing bubbles. Now it's doing something strange, creating a sort of foam of bigger bubbles on the surface of the water.

Also a very strange and different waveform on the scope. 20v spikes, 1.8v showing on the meter. Increasing the SG trigger resistance in the upper 50% of the pot range causes the rotor to slow down, and input current drops to 100mA minimum, while output is 100mA minimum. Input and output remain pretty much even up until 150mA input, then output climbs faster than input.

The lower 50% of the pot doesn't alter the speed, the maximum it will do is 123Hz. But the lower 50% range does change the input and output current. At 680 ohms, input is 375mA, and output is 450mA.

So I have no clue what's going on here But it's given me a couple of ideas for things to try, and I'm about to put another electrolysis tube contraption together and play around to see what effect different configurations (use separate containers or put both in the same water, parallel or series on the SG output etc) has. Also I'll make sealed containers with a way of attaching a pipe to get some way of being able to see how much gas is being produced.

I'm using a standard monopole circuit, tri-filar coil with 2 parallel circuits, and a rectifier made up of 4 diodes across each coil. Standard SG hooked up to steel placed in water with a bit of salt instead of a charging battery basically. Apart from the input and output current numbers, I found the difference in electrolysis effect between using the rods and then using a tube inside another tube curious in itself. Though there are still one or two things I'll have to modify in order to rule out what the cause might be. But the fact I can't get the rotor to speed up, and the voltmeter is only displaying 1.8v is also curious. I don't know why this is. It doesn't make sense in my mind that a simple (and small) change in surface area through going from long rods to short tubes would have such an effect.

Anyway, if anyone knows what the hell is going on here or wants to give it a try and see what they come up with, be my guest

[Sawt2]

I'll Take a stab at it. I'm no authority on it but I actually have done this with our SSG in the past.
I believe the SSG thinks its a battery, thus the 1.8 volts. If you hook 2 of them up in series you will probably get twice the volts. We would get about 3.4 to 3.7 volts with 2 hooked up. Never a lot of production on the hho.

[sucahyo]

I often experience higher output current that input when I charge 3V battery with 12V source with my stingo.

On electrolysis cell, I also often see higher output current too.

The output power always lower on mine though. I guess it depend on the load.

[kcarring]

If you set your circuit up to optimize about 2.3v across your gap, you'll probably find good electrolysis. Unfortunately in a "jar" cell, you have a ton of current leaking into electrolyte solution that is too far from the plates to have an effect. This is partly why jar cells suck compared to dry cells. In a dry cell you have maximum surface area vs. available electrolyte.

[kcarring]

I've found its best to experiment with 120v supply (or 240 if that is what you have). Much more economical. My unit is based on Delvis11's work and produces, at max, about 9 litres of combustible fuel per min.

YouTube - 130 volt Hydrogen generator using 120v ac house power.

You can also take advantage of 120 or 240 in a simple experiment using PVC and nickel coins, in a unit designed after George Wiseman's principles. It is cheap and very effective by comparision to a wet cell or joe cell. If you do not need volume of gas production that is. You could experiment pulsing (with spikes) such a unit and see if it helps any. Others have "added" a pulse train to an existing brute force current circuit.

[kcarring]

The load of your unit will be directly proportionate to your plate surface area, material (SS, nickel, steel... 316L SS or nickel is far superior) and the concentration of your electrolyte. If you max your concentration of KOH or NaOH to 20-30% your draw will increase. Keep that plate drop between 1.9 and 2.3v, always. No matter what your input is, design your cell to the input, not the other way around. Then you'll be rockin! 1 litre per min. is experimental. 3l / min is enough for a tiny flame suitable for electronics desoldering, and jewelry. 9 l/m is suitable for a welding torch flame, some cutting, all brazing, and such.

[Farmhand]

The lower 50% of the pot doesn't alter the speed, the maximum it will do is 123Hz. But the lower 50% range does change the input and output current. At 680 ohms, input is 375mA, and output is 450mA.

Hi dR-Green, Not sure if anyone mentioned it , i didn't read the whole thread.

But it looks to me like you took say 12 volts at 375 Ma = 4.5 watts and turned it into say 6 volts at 450 Ma = 2.7 watts.

To do a power calculation you need to time's volt's by amps to get power.

The same thing happens if you charge a 6 volt battery with the SSG.

By charging down in voltage the impedance is likely higher and more power should be dissapated for a greater loss, I imagine.

Cheers

[dR-Green]

Thanks for the replies. I don't fancy playing around with mains and water, I'm just having a bit of fun for the moment. And that's not the kind of fun I have in mind lol Like Sawt2 said there isn't much gas being produced, but there are things I want to try.

Thanks for that information kcarring. Now that I have 2 of these tube things I've noticed I can increase the voltage by having more of them in parallel, and decrease the voltage and increase current by using more salt in the water, so I intend to play around with that a bit to see if there's a balance it likes, or try to aim for 2.3v like you suggest.

How do you mean design your cell to the input though? I literally have no idea about this so at the moment I'm just thinking of it as a surface area of metal in water. How to design metal tubes to suit my input (which is a Bedini machine) I have no idea. Although the tubes have a curious effect compared to rods. As I said above, the rods plonked in water showed about 8v, the tube inside a tube only 1.8v. So that's weird I thought. Does larger surface area cause a lower voltage, because surely there is larger surface area when I'm using the tubes? But then, if I put 2 tubes in parallel, the voltage increases to 6v, so the larger surface area can't decrease the voltage? I don't get it. I need to play more lol.

Yes Farmhand, that's the only explanation I could think of too. But the weird thing is, I put another tube in parallel in the water, the voltage increased from 1.8v to 6.6v or so, input current had gone up to 400mA, but the output current also increased. Maybe that sounds crap and I can't remember the exact numbers, but I find the ratios of changes interesting if nothing else. The potentiometer is a lot more responsive with 2 tubes in the water too, I can now get it up to about 190Hz.

sucahyo is talking about the same effect I believe. So I guess this also answers one of the questions about the SG I haven't even asked yet: Is it possible to charge a lower voltage battery from a higher voltage input. Thanks for the info everyone

[dR-Green]

Hmm, I'm sure there was another reply by someone here but it's now gone? I wanted to check out the video they posted and then I forgot to reply sorry, whoever it was.

Anyway this whole thing with water hasn't gone very far yet because I've been busy starting building Tesla coils, making a workbench to work on instead of my bed, and playing with transformers connected to the SG output. But it has led to a thing that relates to the HHO cell, now I'm curious as to how what is connected to the SG output affects how the whole thing works, how the SG effectively adjusts itself according to the load.

Not to mention CFLs on the output, connected through a 240v to 12v transformer connected in reverse, at certain frequencies/SG trigger resistance, only lights brightly when I touch it or place conductive objects near it, such as tin foil or wires. If I place this conductive "antennae" close to the CFL but not quite close enough to make it light, non-conductive objects such as a piece of pine wood makes up the difference; when I touch the CFL with the piece of pine, the CFL lights I'm also rectifying the transformer output so the 11w 240v AC CFL is working off pulsed DC (110mA 12v SG input). But the CFL won't stay on constantly, it's more like a strobe. My theory at the moment is that I'm using an off the shelf standard mains step down transformer so it's designed for that purpose, and this acts as a limit that the SG can't overcome because it's not a brute force system.

[Neight]

Hey dR-Green,
interesting that you should pick this up right now. I have done something similar recently that I am preparing to test soon as I can.
one quick note, I noticed you are using salt as an electrolyte. NaCl or table salt will produce chlorine gas in electrolysis. you might use baking soda, or even better if you can get it KOH (potassium hydroxide).
a few weeks back, out of sheer curiosity, I set up a glass of distilled water with some baking soda in it and placed 2 20g copper wires in it as electrodes and hooked the SSG output directly to those. it did great making HH and O on the electrodes, and I am working out a better setup to try this with asap. unfortunately I didn't test my input and output numbers, and I actually expected the neon to light up. I was pleased that it did work and stopped the test to try and come up with a better testing apparatus.
very interested in your results
great idea
N8

[ZeropointEnergy]

good work

Hmm, I'm sure there was another reply by someone here but it's now gone? I wanted to check out the video they posted and then I forgot to reply sorry, whoever it was.

Anyway this whole thing with water hasn't gone very far yet because I've been busy starting building Tesla coils, making a workbench to work on instead of my bed, and playing with transformers connected to the SG output. But it has led to a thing that relates to the HHO cell, now I'm curious as to how what is connected to the SG output affects how the whole thing works, how the SG effectively adjusts itself according to the load.

Not to mention CFLs on the output, connected through a 240v to 12v transformer connected in reverse, at certain frequencies/SG trigger resistance, only lights brightly when I touch it or place conductive objects near it, such as tin foil or wires. If I place this conductive "antennae" close to the CFL but not quite close enough to make it light, non-conductive objects such as a piece of pine wood makes up the difference; when I touch the CFL with the piece of pine, the CFL lights I'm also rectifying the transformer output so the 11w 240v AC CFL is working off pulsed DC (110mA 12v SG input). But the CFL won't stay on constantly, it's more like a strobe. My theory at the moment is that I'm using an off the shelf standard mains step down transformer so it's designed for that purpose, and this acts as a limit that the SG can't overcome because it's not a brute force system.

Hey Green,

Keep up the posts on your progression with this set up and do you
have a method for measuring the HHO production vs the frequency?
(Was wondering if you can obtain varying results with this?)
I have read/watched the Meyers research and the tubes
(larger surface area) produced more efficient results with PWM.

N8 was correct with the NOH as a superior electrolyte and have you tried
making a circuit with a larger cap bank to pulse the 40V you said was
on scope when using rods in early test?

I would love to see a pic of the set-up and input/output mA's

Regards
Zero

[dR-Green]

Hey Green,

Keep up the posts on your progression with this set up and do you
have a method for measuring the HHO production vs the frequency?
(Was wondering if you can obtain varying results with this?)
I have read/watched the Meyers research and the tubes
(larger surface area) produced more efficient results with PWM.

N8 was correct with the NOH as a superior electrolyte and have you tried
making a circuit with a larger cap bank to pulse the 40V you said was
on scope when using rods in early test?

I would love to see a pic of the set-up and input/output mA's

Regards
Zero

That's a good idea, measuring the HHO to frequency ratio. I'd be interested to see those results myself. At the moment I'm just using plastic pots with my electrode contraptions dropped in so there's no way to capture the HHO, but I've bought some of those seal-able air tight kitchen container things, and a few simple garden hose connectors, so my plan is to make a hole in the lid of a container and glue the hose connector on to it, so that way I can easily attach a pipe which will go into a similar set up but the 2nd one will just be a bubbler.

The pulsing cap thing you mentioned had crossed my mind, but then what John Bedini says comes to mind with charging batteries, that the pulsed cap method converts the energy and charges the battery with positive energy. Though I suppose it would still be pulsed, and we're not trying to charge anything here. Could be worth a try. I have plenty of 555 chips at hand, I just don't know how to make an actual timed pulsing circuit out of one

This then relates back to my previous post though... If I put a cap on the SG output then I wouldn't be getting the 40v spikes, it would change to something else because of the cap. So it would have to be a standard kind of setup I imagine... SG charging the cap, and then dumping the cap into the HHO cell. The SG isn't directly powering the HHO cell this way (as far as I understand at least), so the HHO cell would be receiving whatever the cap is dumping into it, not what the SG is putting out directly.

I have a couple of quick videos of the weird CFL effects, I'll have to sign up to energetic tube or whatever and upload them there. My workbench is complete now so it will be easier to do experiments and take notes/pics etc from now on. So far I've been having to use my bed as a temporary bench then I have to dismantle everything before going to sleep so experiments haven't gone far at all yet. Batteries are one thing but my bed + water don't sound like a pleasant combination

[dR-Green]

Hey dR-Green,
interesting that you should pick this up right now. I have done something similar recently that I am preparing to test soon as I can.
one quick note, I noticed you are using salt as an electrolyte. NaCl or table salt will produce chlorine gas in electrolysis. you might use baking soda, or even better if you can get it KOH (potassium hydroxide).
a few weeks back, out of sheer curiosity, I set up a glass of distilled water with some baking soda in it and placed 2 20g copper wires in it as electrodes and hooked the SSG output directly to those. it did great making HH and O on the electrodes, and I am working out a better setup to try this with asap. unfortunately I didn't test my input and output numbers, and I actually expected the neon to light up. I was pleased that it did work and stopped the test to try and come up with a better testing apparatus.
very interested in your results
great idea
N8

Thanks for the tip on salt That reminds me that my friend mentioned smelling chlorine when he was holding the cell. I was too busy fiddling with circuitry to pay attention at the time but that explains it.

I'll have to get back to you shortly anyway, I'm in a fantastic hurry to go out now

[dR-Green]

unfortunately I didn't test my input and output numbers, and I actually expected the neon to light up. I was pleased that it did work and stopped the test to try and come up with a better testing apparatus.
very interested in your results
great idea
N8

Hi N8, most of my tests were also done without meters connected so there's a lot I've tried and have no idea what's going on, and I really should start making notes because I notice loads of things etc but I totally forget about it because something else happens On the neon though, I first tested it with pure water. The neon came on, then as you add salt it slowly fades out.

The SG really doesn't want to go fast with a HHO cell though. One of the things I want to try next is to add resistors (or a resistance) on the SG output to see what's happening and to see if it can sort of be tricked into pulsing faster. I dunno, I'm just stabbing in the dark here but I'll learn something either way

I just signed up to energetic tube and uploaded these playing with the CFL anyway. I filmed them to show a friend and I wasn't intending to make it public as such so it could do with some editing you could say. That huge pile of junk was my work space until a few days ago so not ideal working conditions

EnergeticTube.com -  Where technology goes LIVE!

EnergeticTube.com -  Where technology goes LIVE!

[Neight]

Hi N8, most of my tests were also done without meters connected so there's a lot I've tried and have no idea what's going on, and I really should start making notes because I notice loads of things etc but I totally forget about it because something else happens On the neon though, I first tested it with pure water. The neon came on, then as you add salt it slowly fades out.

The SG really doesn't want to go fast with a HHO cell though. One of the things I want to try next is to add resistors (or a resistance) on the SG output to see what's happening and to see if it can sort of be tricked into pulsing faster. I dunno, I'm just stabbing in the dark here but I'll learn something either way

Have you tried adding more electrolyte? when I ran my first test, I didn't notice the motor part of the SSG even skip a beat. it ran just the same as when the charging battery was connected.
for my future tests, I will make accurate measurements of how much water I put in, and how much electrolyte. for that first test i just filled a glass with distilled water and poured in a pretty good amount of baking soda. not so much that the water became saturated, as it did all dissolve, but plenty for the amount of water i was using to be sure
chances are that wont have an effect on the draw, and it's more likely the plates you are using as electrodes that are causing the motor to be loaded down, but it was a thought, even if it's only half baked

I have a friend who has a very nice set of plates and a container set up as a HHO cell. If i can, I will borrow his setup and connect it to the SSG output. he has some KOH i hope he will let me use also. he and I ran a test one day with a pretty hefty 12V tractor battery, and I would like to compare the results of that with the SSG output. if i get better HHO production with the SSG, then that should be a pretty good indicator of how efficient this method is. His setup would drain the battery much faster than we liked, and that is actually part of what led me to the pulse motors as power generators. I wanted a really efficient way of generating power to make HHO from a battery without killing the battery as fast.
I have my doubts as to how much better this may actually be due to the low amp output of pulse motors, but it is at least exciting to see that it works, great first step!!
another idea I am going to test is to keep the SSG connected to the charge battery as it usually is, and set a generator coil by the rotor and see what kind of HHO i can make with a gen coil instead of directly from the SSG output. not sure if there will be a difference, but it's something else to try
I am going to watch your videos now, thanks for posting!
N8