Can we change the past?

[Aaron]

Time travel is a powerful concept that if possible may permit the changing of past events.

Many schools of thought really enforce the idea that we should learn from the past, not dwell on it and move on. "We can't change the past" has been stated so many times we tend to believe this.

If something in the past was able to be changed, I imagine that everything from that point forward would instantly self-adjust to account for that one change and of course anyone from that moment on will never have anything different in their memory except the newly adjusted past, which will seem like it has always been that way.

Quantum physics is probably the most spooky science of all since it deals with the very substance of our reality and our ability to perceive reality. It proves that an observer influences the outcome of an event remotely, such as the Double Slit Experiment.

Another "spooky" experiment is called the "Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser" and it is causing a lot of controversy because if the results are as they seem, it shows proof that the past CAN be changed. What a concept to add to how deep the rabbit hole goes!!!

Would you change the past if you could? I know that through my life I have been conditioned to believe it is "positive" to accept my past experiences even if they were very undesireable but at least if I learned from them then it makes it a worthwhile experience. Therefore, from this conditioning I can't really say I wouldn't want to change the past but I'm not saying I would. But it makes for an interesting consideration especially when quantum physics shows that at least at some level, the past can be changed.

I'll post the Quantum Eraser and other related experiments and variations of the double slit experiment at Double Slit Experiment

So, would you want to change the past if you could and if not why? Also, if you would want to change the past, would it necessarily be a bad thing?

[Aaron]

changing the past

There are more references in the double slit thread about experiments that essentially change the past in very interesting ways.

The collective holds all info in the past, present and future. If something in the past changes, then it would seem that everything would adjust from that point into the future to account for the change. We would probably only remember the past as it has been adjusted and not the "original" past.

Would this totally change the collective record? The answer is NO. The collective will maintain a record of all the time lines no matter what has been changed. How can this be known that the collective will hold the original info even if it was changed and a new timeline was established? Some interesting things to think about

What if it was discovered that something happened in the past that was different from what we remember?

[Kevin]

Time Travel - what a fun subject!

This has been a fascination of mine since pre-teen years.

Here is another great link:

Can an Electron be in Two Places at the Same Time?

It could be a lot of fun!

[V'ger]

Only the past that you notice...

I think everyone has changed the past. Just look at a time when you thought a situation was one way, then somebody said something and it turned out to be another situation entirely. Didn't the past change right then?

How much of our world is borne of the same type of perception? Much. How many of the icons and cornerstones of society are entirely elective and borne of agreement? Many. Perhaps most.

How many times have you transformed the present to see the past transform as well?

Can we change the past? Overall, equally as well as we keep it.

Put a bit of a different spin on this quote and you will see that it falls right in line:

"History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it."
Winston Churchill


Regards -

John H.

[Aaron]

perception of past

Hi John,

I agree totally. There is usually what innately happened or the truth to a matter and then there is the perception that we create in our mind about what happened. Any realization of what really happened in the past compared to how we have always perceived it instantly changed the past for us. An therefore, from that point up to the moment, everything self-adjusts according to the changed perception.

If we look back through our lives almost the entire thing is created by us and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what actually happened. So if we created it anyway, we might as well see it more for what it is so that we can become more empowered by it.

I do think that there is a possibility that the reality of something that happened in the past could be changed but if it did, we wouldn't have any conscious recollection of it. Meaning, actually physically changing an event in the past literally and not just our perception of it.

Makes me want to go watch Back to the Future triology! lol

[Aaron]

Martial arts students influence the past

The July 1994 edition of New Scientist contained an article by Julian Brown with the rather surprising title "Martial arts students influence the past". For copyright reasons, we are unable to reproduce it here so we shall describe its contents:

This is from: Martial arts students influence the past

The article focusses on Berkeley physicist Henry Stapp's paper "Theoretical model of a purported empirical violation of the predictions of quantum theory" published in Physical Review A, July 1994. The paper is described as "scientific heresy", probably as it was inspired by experiments carried out by parapsychologist Helmut Schmidt in San Antonio, Texas in 1992.

The intial claim is that Stapp "has found a way of modifying the basic equations of quantum theory to permit people to influence things that happened in the past".

Schmidt's experiments are described briefly. They involved a group of martial arts students as subjects, being shown prerecorded random numbers via an electronic display. The numbers had been generated some months earlier by an apparatus involving a radioactive source and a decay counter (radioactive decay timings being as "truly random" as anything one can find in nature). The students attempted to exert a mental "influence" on the visual display, whose behaviour was determined by the prerecorded numbers. In this way, they would be supposedly influencing the statistical distributions of the numbers themselves. "Remarkably", the article claims, a significant bias was found in the numbers, "one that had a less than 1 in 1000 probability of occuring by chance". It is claimed that "elaborate precautions were taken to prevent any cheating". Precise descriptions of experimental procedures in many similar experiments carried out by Schmidt can be found in the numerous articles available in the RPKP archive.

Henry Stapp had acted as an independent monitor in Schmidt's experiments, and while "acknowledging the inherent heresy of the idea", he decided to look further into the possibility that the martial arts students had actually influenced the past. His idea was to develop a simple generalisation of a modified "nonlinear" quantum theory introduced by Steven Weinberg of the University of Texas at Austin. Whereas the macroscopic world involves countless nonlinear systems (from the rupture of an elastic band to the collapse of a stock market), the standard model of quantum mechanics suggests that the underlying behaviour of the microworld is entirely linear. Weinberg was attempting to bridge this gulf between an explicitly nonlinear macroworld and a purportedly linear microworld. He concluded that such an adaptation could not work, as the changes introduced would lead to "logical absurdities". Stapp has apparently "sidestepped" Weinberg's concerns and developed his own nonlinear version of quantum theory, one which accomodates Schmidt's findings.

Stapp claims that the nonlinearity he has introduced would allow a mental influence on the outcome of quantum measurements. He is quoted as saying "Although quantum theory is a beautiful theory and has been tested to very high accuracy experimentally there is still considerable doubt over what precisely happens when a quantum system such as a decaying radioactive atom is subjected to a measurement. Eugene Wigner suggested that consciousness is involved in a fundamental way. I don't know whether he was right but if he was then this work takes his ideas one step further."

The article goes on to explain the ideas of "quantum superposition", i.e. that a radioactive atom can exist in two states simultaneously - one in which a decay has occurred and one in which it hasn't. Wigner suggested that the atom is forced into one of the two states only when the decay is monitored by a human observer. If this is the case, when Schmidt's apparatus generates random numbers, there would actually be a complicated superposition of states in which we could find all possible sets of numbers. As long as the numbers remain unobserved, it is claimed, the superposition would remain (this ignores the issue of "thermal decoherence" which prevents macroscopic quantum superpostions - this may be a significant oversight). In Schmidt's experiments the superposition would have remained until the martial arts students viewed the electronic display.

Even if Wigner's interpretation is correct (and not all physicists accept it), standard quantum mechanics would still predict a statistically unbiased outcome, contrary to Schmidt's findings. In Stapp's adaptation of quantum mechanics, however, the nonlinearity allows mental states to "skew the relative probabilities. Intent, he says, could boost the chances of one particular set of numbers being selected over another."

The crucial idea here seems to be a mathematical representation of the subjects "intent" in terms of a quantum brain state, as well as the representation of the superpostion of the possible number-states. "When one of the martial arts students saw a signal on the display, for example, the combined system of numbers and brain would have evolved into a new quantum state. In Stapp's version of quantum theory, the way this evolution occurs would depend on a term that involved the interaction of the two- the numbers and the brain. It is this term that could allow the probabilities to be biased."

Weinberg claims he has not yet seen the paper, and therefore is unable to comment on its details. However, he has pointed out that nuclear spin measurements provide evidence that any nonlinear quantum mechanical effects could contribute no more than one part in 10^27 of the energy of a nucleus. "That's a fantastic level of precision. Any modification of the theory is going to find it difficult to meet that constraint. Furthermore, another problem with nonlinear terms is that they allow the possibility of signals that can propagate faster than light. That to me just seems unacceptable."

Stapp has responded by saying that he had yet to calculate the size of the effect his nonlinear term would have on energy levels in the nucleus. He believes, however, that the problem of faster-than-light signalling, which leads to a breakdown of causality, is connected to the seeming causality violation which is evident in Schmidt's data. So in a sense the martial arts students were able to "influence the past", but Stapp's theory provides a "causal" mechanism by which this can happen.

[Adrienne]

V'ger and Aaron

hi,

this is the song that came to me when i read the quote you put up V'ger.....

"History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it."
Winston Churchill


YouTube - Natasha Bedingfield - Unwritten - Acoustic Performance

i chose this version, cuz it sings to my soul....

I wouldn't want to change the past,cuz in coming theough the experiences and gaining a diff perception has molded me to who i am today..and if everything would shift to accomadate the change of the past, then i would think that who i am today would change too....and i am an amazing woman, and have alot to offer from my experience.... Althought the thought of actualy being able to change the past would be tempting, cuz of the experiences of gaining a knew perception.....has been un-fun, and difficult.

Interesting topic Aaron....

Cheers....Adrienne

HEHE....I JUST READ THE QUOTE AGAIN AND I READ IT WRONG....OH WELL GOOD SONG ANYHOW....LOL....I WOULDN'T MIND CHANGING THIS MOMENT...LOL
ALL GOOD.....

[Grace]

To Change or not to Change?

Hi Aaron,

"So in a sense the martial arts students were able to "influence the past", but Stapp's theory provides a "causal" mechanism by which this can happen."

Fascinating!! I thought I was the only one that knew this!!

[Aaron]

change the past

Hi Adrienne,

Wow! I like the song need the acoustic on CD!

I guess according to the concepts we may be changing the past as we go but the thing about it is that those changes would self adjust to the present moment and we won't know the difference. It would seem that our past memory has always been that way.

Quite a concept! But interesting that some experiments have proven that the past has changed based on what happened in the present. this is pretty earth shattering.

[Aaron]

time travel

Hi Aaron,

"So in a sense the martial arts students were able to "influence the past", but Stapp's theory provides a "causal" mechanism by which this can happen."

Fascinating!! I thought I was the only one that new this!!

LOL! we'll have fun in Vegas!

[Adrienne]

hi,

hi Aaron,
hmmmm, from that perspective, that would be in credible, although one of them thing that just seems soooo, unfathomable.. , like alot that we seem to talk talk abut on this forum, but thats what kinda makes it cool, cuz some in this world are open to it and the possibilities and of course IF it makes sense, cuz some stuff really doesn't...at least to me.... ...anyways....gonna stop with the rambling now...
i love acoustic anything, of course the artist has to be good.

CHEERS MATE .......Adrienne

[infinitethoughts]

I wouldn't want to change the past,cuz in coming theough the experiences and gaining a diff perception has molded me to who i am today..

Adrienne,
Well here's a noodle baker for ya.


Every 'moment' you're changing the past and the future, cause 'time' as we know it is completely wrong.

[Adrienne]

infinitthoughts

hi, thanks for the quote....well i like that there is more to stretch my mind....so bring it on, keeps things interesting...cheers, Adrienne

[nlivened]

Beyond Space and Time

Seeing a quote by Einstein within this article caused me to stop and read. This is excerpted from a longer article entitled How the Brain Creates God. The emerging science of neurotheology is discussed at length.

“For a mystical experience to occur, perceptions narrow and brain regions that orient us in space and mark the distinction between self and world must go quiet. We give up the past and give up the future – we give up our defenses.”

Beyond Space and Time

Einstein had a virtually mystical understanding of the nature of space and time, which he expressed in The N.Y. Times, March 29, 1972:

“A human being is a part of a whole, called by us ‘Universe.’ A part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest – a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires, and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security.”

A triple “prison” for the mystic, space, time, and personality define and specify the normal state of consciousness. Mystic ecstasy offers a glimpse of spiritual freedom, and escape from the prison of selfhood. Remaining as motionless as possible facilitates this effect. When the parietal lobes quiet down, a person first feels detachment from the tyranny of the perceptions, then an expansive oneness with the universe of cosmic unity.

Time distortion starts the personal escape from time, sign of an attempt to escape from the cocoon. Then the inner marriage between the personal and non-personal aspects of the psyche is consummated. Psychic conflicts are transcended, leaving a whole, complete being.

When the orientation area is deprived of neuronal input by gating from the hippocampus, sense of self expands. With no preferred position or direction in space, the local self dissolves in omnidirectional expansion. If one remains motionless, there is no external reference signal to orient in 3-space and no reason for this portion of the brain to activate. Continued meditation can over-drive certain other brain areas and seemingly transport us to another universe.

For a mystical experience to occur, perceptions narrow and brain regions that orient us in space and mark the distinction between self and world must go quiet. We give up the past and give up the future – we give up our defenses. All feelings cease as the self merges with the numinous element. The mind becomes tranquil, withdraws itself from all sides, becoming firmly established in the supreme Reality.

In order to feel that time, fear, and self-consciousness have dissolved, certain brain circuits must be interrupted. This includes damping activity in the fear-registering amygdala, which monitors the environment for threats. Parietal-lobe circuits that give us a sense of physical orientation and a distinction between self and world must quiet down.

The orientation area requires sensory input to do its calculations. Intense meditation blocks the brain from forming a distinction between self and world. Frontal and temporal-lobe circuits, which mark time and generate self-awareness, must disengage. When this happens, self-awareness briefly drops out and we feel like our boundaries dissolve.

The most immediate experience is that of always having been and being forever. The three illusions – space, time and personality – are obliterated in cosmic consciousness, as the soul completes its journey to its spiritual home. Human consciousness is eliminated, having been reabsorbed into the primordial essence. All becomes All without differentiation.

Excepted from: How the Brain Creates God

[Bluelq]

Time travel..

I have always had a similar concept in my mind. There is no past and future as it is understood. I have not yet solved the issue but I always felt that the "now" affects the integrity of the past int eh same way it dos the future. In a sense I felt that when someone reaches universal oneness (higher vibrations) then the previous state of affairs loses ontological value.

I guess the closest analogy I can relate to it derives from Robert Bruce's theory of the mind split during projection. During each level of projection earth, astral etc one creates a separate double projecting self, while still retaining all consciences for each lower level. But those become secondary, and really just linger. In other words I entertain the idea that the spiritual journey of self changes the past because we see it from a higher view point. The same events, from a higher vibration standpoint are affected into a different arrangement. Indeed the past is changed and there is no recollection of the original event. Even the natural arrangement is altered. Can any of you recollect base feelings of anger the way they were expressed by you , lets say, 20 years ago? Our idea has changed of that event. The kicker is considering that the event never really occurred as we thought it did anyways. This even leads me to question reality in its full sense. Does anything occur that is stable. Is everything an alteration of the present? Is everything in the present? I many times search for advise from a future self.
I try to leave beacons of importance for my future self to alter.

Causality must play a role as well. Let us say an event occurs which causes certain events. If those events are perceived differently and within that different perception we no longer require the original causal event maybe it ceases to exist kind of like the astral form or impression which loses its existence when thought form ceases to create it.

As above so Below..