Negative temps and machines "more than 100% efficient" - 4 Jan 2013 in major Journal

[PhysicsProf]

"The scientists detailed their findings in the Jan. 4 issue of the journal Science."

Major publication, using language we are used to in this community, for example:

This unusual advance could lead to new engines that could technically be more than 100 percent efficient, and shed light on mysteries such as dark energy,

Science gets colder than absolute zero

By Charles Choi

Published January 04, 2013

LiveScience

negative-temperature-atoms.jpg

When an object is heated, its atoms can move with different levels of energy, from low to high. With positive temperatures (blue), atoms more likely occupy low-energy states than high-energy states, while the opposite is true for negative temperatures (red). (LMU / MPQ Munich)

Absolute zero is often thought to be the coldest temperature possible. But now researchers show they can achieve even lower temperatures for a strange realm of "negative temperatures."

Oddly, another way to look at these negative temperatures is to consider them hotter than infinity, researchers added.

This unusual advance could lead to new engines that could technically be more than 100 percent efficient, and shed light on mysteries such as dark energy, the mysterious substance that is apparently pulling our universe apart.
Another odd consequence of negative temperatures has to do with entropy, which is a measure of how disorderly a system is. When objects with positive temperature release energy, they increase the entropy of things around them, making them behave more chaotically. However, when objects with negative temperatures release energy, they can actually absorb entropy.the researchers had to give it a negative pressure as well, tinkering with the interactions between atoms until they attracted each other more than they repelled each other.

"We have created the first negative absolute temperature state for moving particles," said researcher Simon Braun at the University of Munich in Germany.more than 100-percent efficient, something seemingly impossible. Such engines would essentially not only absorb energy from hotter substances, but also colder ones. As such, the work the engine performed could be larger than the energy taken from the hotter substance alone.

Negative temperatures might also help shed light on one of the greatest mysteries in science. Scientists had expected the gravitational pull of matter to slow down the universe's expansion after the Big Bang, eventually bringing it to a dead stop or even reversing it for a "Big Crunch." However, the universe's expansion is apparently speeding up, accelerated growth that cosmologists suggest may be due to dark energy, an as-yet-unknown substance that could make up more than 70 percent of the cosmos.

In much the same way, the negative pressure of the cold gas the researchers created should make it collapse. However, its negative temperature keeps it from doing so. As such, negative temperatures might have interesting parallels with dark energy that may help scientists understand this enigma.

Negative temperatures could also shed light on exotic states of matter, generating systems that normally might not be stable without them. "A better understanding of temperature could lead to new things we haven't even thought of yet," Schneider said. "When you study the basics very thoroughly, you never know where it may end."

The scientists detailed their findings in the Jan. 4 issue of the journal Science.

Read more: Science gets colder than absolute zero | Fox News

[Ernst]

Temperature is derived from moleculair movement. When there is no more movement it can not move slower. That is what 0 K means. A negative temperature is therefor by definition impossible. (period)

Everyone always gets older. There is not one person who gets younger over time. It is a similar definition; as time passes people get older.
But....
We read in the newspapers: "car owners get younger every year", and we know what it means: people buy cars at a younger age and/or stop driving at a younger age.
So the average age of the group of car owners goes down, while every person in this group only gets older.

It is a mathematical construct and it is fun of coarse that it can be shown in experiments, but it has absolutely no practical meaning or implications. Suppose that it did, then we would have a source of tremendous energy:

At negative temperatures matter shows a negative viscosity, meaning that an object passing through this matter is not slowed down (friction) but in stead it is accelerated.
This means it gains energy from a place where there is less than zero....
Now that would be really great, wouldn't it?

It is a mathematical construct nothing more....

Ernst.

[Farmhand]

I agree Ernst, 100% with you. It makes one wonder who is paying these people
and what is their actual value. If it's public or shareholder money paying for that,
they ought to ask for their money back. Or just stop paying them.

The theory seems delusional.
It doesn't make any sense, not common sense nor does it seem logically correct.

All I got to say after that is, WoW, OMG, WT....... ?

Cheers

[PhysicsProf]

Interesting reaction to the experimental data published in one of the premier journals of science. This is not mere conjecture/theory -- but experimental evidence.

But one has to come to grips with ENTROPY, and with new experimental data to appreciate this advancement in our understanding.

Perhaps this explanation from the journal New Scientist will help:

[mbrownn]

Let me get this straight, absolute zero is a temperature at which no movement will be observed in an atom.

If I understand this, sub atomic particles can move at this temperature and all atoms are made up of sub atomic particles. From this I would sat absolute zero is an arbitrary number we came up with and by definition is incorrect.

If I understand this correctly atoms and sub atomic particles are made up of energy grouped together so any subatomic particle or quantum of energy would be measured as a negative on our kelvin scale

Ok I have come up with my understanding of this as I do not understand the content of the posts but with my understanding it is still a linear scale and not a loop.

Another possible solution could be pressure, if the pressure was high enough then it could prevent movement. This would not mean there is no energy in the atom just that we cannot see it. Thus if we cool and compress an atom it could go negative in terms of observed energy. But surely that would be an observational error.

Sorry if I am barking up the wrong tree

[madhatter]

this is further research in dark matter & energy. first thing to keep in mind is that most all scales science has derived have a start & stop point or a line vector, but in reality everything is circular or looped, by convention we just look at a segment of it.

this is a novel way to explore what dark energy is. it also goes to show just how little we know about the universe, our speck of a solar system within the heliosphere contains one type of environment, outside that ???? what happens to EM waves as they traverse thru dark matter? how do we gauge the universe if negative entropy exists?

The article is talking about the energy state of the system, that state is then correlated to temperature. re-distribution of the energy level is what they did in simple terms, in the new state the behavior is negative or opposite to conventional energy systems. Hydrogen, neon & helium have a reverse joule Thomson effect, all three are components of interstellar medium gas. What would be interesting would be to figure if those gasses behaved differently in that environment, and are those gasses present beyond the heliosphere? before someone comments on spectral lines and observation recall our visual observation is thru (ISM) filtered of those gasses, real sampling will be done hopefully when Voyager and Pioneer break thru the heliosphere and report back if possible.
bizzaro indeed....

[relgub]

[b]
"The scientists detailed their findings in the Jan. 4 issue of the journal Science."
...

Thanks for the article.
I cannot express how surprised I am by this article.

I don't really trust official science anymore (I don't believe in big bang, string theory, dark matter, antimatter, black holes, etc). Nevertheless I found this article rather interesting.

[zapzap]

I don't really trust official science anymore (I don't believe in big bang, string theory, dark matter, antimatter, black holes, etc). Nevertheless I found this article rather interesting.

Then you'll most likely love this video - three (I think) of those theories you mentioned are in a sense trashed. And a solution without them is experimentally demonstrated. Enjoy: The Primer Fields Part 1 - YouTube

There's a lot more, enjoy!

[mbrownn]

Thanks for the article.
I cannot express how surprised I am by this article.

I don't really trust official science anymore (I don't believe in big bang, string theory, dark matter, antimatter, black holes, etc). Nevertheless I found this article rather interesting.

I think this is very important, based upon what we know, it is hard to trust official science as there is an obvious agenda. It is also true to say that there is much misinformation and nonsense amongst the other "so called" scientific communities.

I am still trying to get my head around this one

[PhysicsProf]

I think this is very important, based upon what we know, it is hard to trust official science as there is an obvious agenda. It is also true to say that there is much misinformation and nonsense amongst the other "so called" scientific communities.

I am still trying to get my head around this one

I had an invited colloquium scheduled for Sept 5, 2012 at a large university, physics department (see attached announcement by them).

Unfortunately, that University department met and took a vote and I was not allowed to give the colloquium. BUT then I was invited to give a seminar on the SAME material (alternative energy, including free energy) at the University of Missouri -- and that talk (October 2012) was well-attended and enthusiastically received.

My point is that SOME University professors may be closed minded, but NOT ALL! And there are some influential "gate-keepers" who try to stop colloquia on topics that are not "politically correct," as evidenced. Others fall in line oftentimes (I've observed). But some professors and scientists remain doggedly open-minded and curious -- and I congratulate these!

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Interesting reaction to the experimental data published in one of the premier journals of science. This is not mere conjecture/theory -- but experimental evidence.

But one has to come to grips with ENTROPY, and with new experimental data to appreciate this advancement in our understanding.

Perhaps this explanation from the journal New Scientist will help:

Thanks for posting this Steven
Andrew sent me a film that I had not seen "not to do with this topic", which is to do with work of mine, see 3D magnetic field thread. We seem to get involved with our work so much that we do not see what others are doing in the same field.

Mike

[mbrownn]

I had an invited colloquium scheduled for Sept 5, 2012 at a large university, physics department (see attached announcement by them).

Unfortunately, that University department met and took a vote and I was not allowed to give the colloquium. BUT then I was invited to give a seminar on the SAME material (alternative energy, including free energy) at the University of Missouri -- and that talk (October 2012) was well-attended and enthusiastically received.

My point is that SOME University professors may be closed minded, but NOT ALL! And there are some influential "gate-keepers" who try to stop colloquia on topics that are not "politically correct," as evidenced. Others fall in line oftentimes (I've observed). But some professors and scientists remain doggedly open-minded and curious -- and I congratulate these!

The number of times I see science being decided by a vote is amazing. Even the peer review process suffers with this unscientific problem.

The big bang theory and the world being flat were decided this way.

Did you see this article Light hits near infinite speed in silver-coated glass - physics-math - 07 January 2013 - New Scientist I found it on one of the more reliable news aggregateors Headlines - David Icke Website I think it has similar implications to what you posted here

[PhysicsProf]

The number of times I see science being decided by a vote is amazing. Even the peer review process suffers with this unscientific problem.

The big bang theory and the world being flat were decided this way.

Did you see this article Light hits near infinite speed in silver-coated glass - physics-math - 07 January 2013 - New Scientist I found it on one of the more reliable news aggregateors Headlines - David Icke Website I think it has similar implications to what you posted here

Interesting article, M. -- thanks. From the New Scientist article you cited:

[Ernst]

Interesting reaction to the experimental data published in one of the premier journals of science. This is not mere conjecture/theory -- but experimental evidence.

But one has to come to grips with ENTROPY, and with new experimental data to appreciate this advancement in our understanding.

Perhaps this explanation from the journal New Scientist will help:

[mbrownn]

I don't really understand the principals of the article posted by Steve, maybe that is why I am a little sceptical but the article about light seems common sense to me.

In the absence of an article I can get my head round I will have to wait for a clearer explanation but my mind remains open.

On the light thing I compare it with some simpler things, Its sort of like a yacht sailing into the Wind, the speed gained on each tac is far in excess of the wind speed. What practical use it has remains to be seen.