New Motor Winding Arrangement

[Bob Smith]

I happened across this YT user's video on a novel (at least to me) DC motor winding arrangement. I'd be interested in anyone else's take on it.
My main question is: What happens to the cemf in each set of windings?

If anyone has any observations, I'd love to hear them. Here's the video at the point at which the new method for winding starts (back it up to the beginning if you want to see the standard winding):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9CLtlkl6fM&feature=player_detailpage#t=99

Bob

[Matthew Jones]

That ends up working like an encapsulated window motor. Its B field winding, or at least I think thats what it is called.

Now one reason he appears to get more power is most likely do to the lower induction, more current. CEMF is the build up of the magnetic field in the iron to slow the current. Since he used less wire and bigger wire (At least it looked like) he has less build up of magnetic field.

Now if he showed it measured and the current was lower well I would say it was novel, but that won't happen. The current may stay more stable across the work load, IE with no work he uses 10 amp, and under load he uses 11, but why use that much power for nothing.

Under conventional winding the motor might use .5 amp with no load and 10 under load, over all less power consumed.

In this thread we did some work with a motor and wound it to run similiar. This motor had 4 poles. We used real high induction and high voltage. Now this arrangement showed a reduction in CEMF, or BEMF what ever you wanna call it. Refer to Peter's explanation as to why this was the case.
Also again look at John Bedini's window motor, same thing stable power over the work load real high induction and real low current flow.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6792-lockridge-device-peter-lindemann.html

Its a shame the guy in the movie doesn't explain the whole Input Output a little better.

Cheers
Matt

[Bob Smith]

Thanks very much Matt. What you say makes a lot of sense. I'll follow up reading the Lockridge thread. Yes, it is too bad there wasn't more info on amp draw with the regular winding, and with the modded one. Oh well. Thought I'd put it out there.
Thanks for taking the time.
Bob

[Bob Smith]

Matt (and anyone else),
I gave this some more thought. What if...

- original windings were a finer gauge wire,
- a second commutator was added at the other end of the armature,
- a set of step-up windings were wound overtop the first windings and soldered to the second commutator in same fashion as primary?

In effect, we'd have a motor that is actually running as a transformer/generator. Given the arcing between secondary commutator and brushes, you might also have radiant energy entering into the system.

Any thoughts? Guess I'll have to try it out.
(Still have to look at the Lockridge thread, but I will).
Bob

[Ufopolitics]

It is not new, Bob...

I happened across this YT user's video on a novel (at least to me) DC motor winding arrangement. I'd be interested in anyone else's take on it.
My main question is: What happens to the cemf in each set of windings?

If anyone has any observations, I'd love to hear them. Here's the video at the point at which the new method for winding starts (back it up to the beginning if you want to see the standard winding):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9CLtlkl6fM&feature=player_detailpage#t=99

Bob

[Bob Smith]

Hey there UFO
Thanks for stopping by and commenting on this setup. I have to order some motors, and I will try some kind of mod, adapting this type of winding further. I appreciate your tip on the wiring. I'll remember that when I get at it.

We're all working toward the same objective, I think - the betterment of humanity, each of us trying to do our part. Nice to hear the Central Americans (dear to my heart) are into it too.

Que estes bien
Bob

[mbrownn]

This plain simple winding is what I use in my experiments. the difference is i connect the coils to the commutator segments at 90 degrees to what is shown. The reasons for this is to make the brushes have their original positions and keep the wires close to the armature shaft.

If you use just a single coil, you have a pulse motor with two pulses per rev and by adding a second set of brushes you can collect the inductive kickback. If you dont have recovery brushes on this type of winding you get a huge amount of arcing at the brushes. On this particular armature it would be possible to place two windings at 90 degrees to each other and have four pulses per rev.

The problem with a pulse motor of this type is getting enough current to flow, but by replacing one of the field magnets with a coil, a transformer effect occurs lowering the inductance of the armature winding. Now we have more current without having to increase voltage. The current found in the new field winding can be used as an output to a low impedance load.

The BEMF generated in this field coil is generated current, but because we are pulsing we also get AC appearing in this coil too, something I have been working on.

I believe that it could have been this type of winding that was used in the lockridge.

I think there is much in what is said about the standard winding with currents opposing each other, so it may well be true that he has increased torque, but I don't think his brushes will last long.

[Dog-One]

Other options/tweaks...

This plain simple winding is what I use in my experiments. the difference is i connect the coils to the commutator segments at 90 degrees to what is shown. The reasons for this is to make the brushes have their original positions and keep the wires close to the armature shaft.

On the other hand, if you have your brushes mounted to a plate you can rotate in respect to the permanent magnets, you can find the best angular offset for the type of load you are powering.


Having a set of brushes that just barely lag the primary powering brushes would provide a really good mechanism for power recovery.

Also, using stator coils could be another nice benefit. You can pulse them as well as the primary brushes.

And... If you have the switching available to pulse, it might be good to look at pulsing during repulsion (dielectric counter-voidance) instead of attraction (dielectric voidance) as I suspect from Ken's work the field lines in this mode might nearly diminish Lenz effect.

[mbrownn]

On the other hand, if you have your brushes mounted to a plate you can rotate in respect to the permanent magnets, you can find the best angular offset for the type of load you are powering.

Correct, but not all motors are easy to adjust in this way.

Having a set of brushes that just barely lag the primary powering brushes would provide a really good mechanism for power recovery.

Correct

Also, using stator coils could be another nice benefit. You can pulse them as well as the primary brushes.

Correct, and you can also recover power. There are also other benefits but as this thread is about a particular type of winding for an armature i wont go into that.

And... If you have the switching available to pulse, it might be good to look at pulsing during repulsion (dielectric counter-voidance) instead of attraction (dielectric voidance) as I suspect from Ken's work the field lines in this mode might nearly diminish Lenz effect.

[Bob Smith]

Mbrownn,
Thanks so much for sharing the fruits of your building and tests. It'll save me a lot of time. I will try the single set of windings as you suggest, with the wire ends attached to the commutator at 90 degrees to the coils. The second set of brushes was something I had planned on adding, having built a few of UFO's early 3 and 5 pole motors.

I'm wondering if incorporating a series-wound bifilar coil might minimize the secondary reflection between primary and secondary. However...

- with the primary as swbifi, there is theoretically a cancellation of magnetic fields, and so, common sense tells me that this would probably not bode well for repulsion between coil and magnet stators;
- with the secondary wound as swbifi, I do not know if this form of winding will pick up the cemf from the primary. This is the option I would like to try, assuming that it would multiply voltage and diminish current, but again, I don't know if its topology would be receptive to being induced by the primary's inductive kickback.

My initial choice is door number two. It seems to me that it would provide a step-up voltage option which is passed thru a spark gap (brushes) and out.
Any thoughts or comments are much appreciated.
Bob

[mbrownn]

Mbrownn,
Thanks so much for sharing the fruits of your building and tests. It'll save me a lot of time. I will try the single set of windings as you suggest, with the wire ends attached to the commutator at 90 degrees to the coils. The second set of brushes was something I had planned on adding, after building a few of UFO's early 3 and 5 pole motors.

I'm wondering if incorporating a series-wound bifilar coil might minimize the secondary reflection between primary and secondary. However...

- with the primary as swbifi, there is theoretically a cancellation of magnetic fields, and so, common sense tells me that this would probably not bode well for repulsion between coil and magnet stators;
- with the secondary wound as swbifi, I do not know if this form of winding will pick up the cemf from the primary. This is the option I would like to try, assuming that it would multiply voltage and diminish current, but again, I don't know if its topology would be receptive to being induced by the primary's inductive kickback.

Any thoughts or comments are much appreciated.
Bob

[Bob Smith]

MBrownn
Thanks for your response. Going with the heavier primary winding, I guess we're back to the higher current draw that Matt alluded to. I never thought to put a cap at the supply end. I see how combining it with picking up at the generator end could be a useful option.

Like you, I would like to see what it takes to maximize what can be taken out of a motor/generator without the aid of a pwm.

One of my main objectives would be to harness the power of bemf to assist the rotor's rotation.

I believe there also may be something to be said for feedback in order to produce standing waves (perhaps via zener diode) within the armature itself, but I am getting way ahead of myself here. Have to decide on wire gauge and coil topologies first. I appreciate your input, and will need some time to read it over and digest it. Further input always welcome
Bob

[mbrownn]

MBrownn
Thanks for your response. Going with the heavier primary winding, I guess we're back to the higher current draw that Matt alluded to. I never thought to put a cap at the supply end. I see how combining it with picking up at the generator end could be a useful option.

Like you, I would like to see what it takes to maximize what can be taken out of a motor/generator without the aid of a pwm.

The interesting thing about mechanical switching in this form is it is self balancing. We know that with a pulse duration of 50%, when the motor first starts to turn we burn power, but this is where maximum current is available as the commutator cant switch off. As a result the motor accelerates until it meets the load. My experience showed that our pulse results in 50% ramp up and about 35% ramp down which is the inductive kickback. This is the normal unloaded condition, but we have to take care to have low resistance bearings and low friction brushes. This is the balance I am talking about, If the motor had no frictional, BEMF or resistive losses, it would become 50 50.

The trick here is how do we get the motor to do work without burning power? believe me it is possible but not with a standard motor geometry.

One of my main objectives would be to harness the power of bemf to assist the rotor's rotation.

I believe there also may be something to be said for feedback in order to produce standing waves (perhaps via zener diode) within the armature itself, but I am getting way ahead of myself here. Have to decide on wire gauge and coil topologies first. I appreciate your input, and will need some time to read it over and digest it. Further input always welcome
Bob

Im not sure what you mean by standing waves. Where and how?

Use a single winding to start with, leave the rest of the slots empty.

When you rewind your armature, increase your wire gauge by one or two if its a 12v motor and try to get the same number of turns, you can usually squeeze this in. your resistance wants to be considerably less than 1 ohm.

The brushes are usually 3 to 5 ohms which is way too high but for now stick with them.

For your generator coil go for a wire gauge as large as you can while having 2 1/2 times more turns.

[mbrownn]

[Matthew Jones]

Dont be afraid of current draw, its a requirement of these types of motor. Power is volts multiplied by amps, Just the same as we can use high voltage with little current we can use low voltage with high current and still consume the same power. Nature supplies us with electricity in both these forms but we choose to use medium voltage and medium current, something nature does not provide.

Torque in a motor is a result of ampere turns, voltage not even being part of the equation, so if we don't need it, why produce it excessively.

Where do you get this? Can you show me a motor that will run off 1 volt at 100 amp efficiently?
I can show you one that will run at 100 volt 1 amp and produce more torque or HP than 100 watts should allow and recover 90% of the energy put in.

I am not sure what it is you test but if voltage is not important "voltage not even being part of the equation" then you need to show us, cause that is contrary to everything I have ever heard.

Maybe its better to say put up or .....

Matt