Roto Verter

[Peter Lindemann]

That didn't hurt, now did it?

Results after Cleaning bearings and adding duralube oil instead.

Amps 1.07
Volts 123.6
Watts 132
PF .98 to .99PF ( I tunned it a bit )
3509 RPM ( free spinning )


When running on Battery it pulls an average of 3.5 to 4.2 Amp at 12.2V

WOOOOOWW

Mart,

Great work. Now you see how little it really takes to run the motor. You see, REALITY isn't bad at all!!

Peter

[Aaron]

vacclaisocryptene

Great stuff Mart!

You mentioned an oil heater....I have a forced oil heat unit and the blower motor is one that I want to at least PF correct...and if there is something even more, that is what I'm looking for.

Either way, you mention duralube. Is that the duralube additive? True story...I drove from eastern washington to the coast at the washington and oregon border....and back...had duralube in and found out there was no oil in the car...had drained out and I drove like that for a couple hundred miles...from the last known time I did have oil in...oil filter broke somehow and everything drained out.

The duralube allowed the engine to run without overheating and without oil...just like shown in infomercials.

LONGTERM...it has some microencapsulated chlorine type molecules that will wear down, get out and eat anything that it can...seals, etc... not sure what materials might be there that it can eat on your setup, but bottom line is that stuff is a huge liability. AMSOil has good documentation on the stuff and what it does.

Anyway, vacclaisocryptene is the #1 most advanced (and one of the oldest) oil additives for the closest you can get to friction free oil lubrication as it was designed for the oil and gas production companies to begin with...and they do know what is best. Was a classified war secret for years but has been available commercial for quite some time.

It is something that I deal with because of the documentation behind it. I use it in my cars but I added a few drops of it with a few drops of electric motor oil to drop in my blower motor oil fill caps and it started to run quite a bit smoother and I know that there will never be negative effects from it.

[theremart]

Re: That did not hurt.

Mart,

Great work. Now you see how little it really takes to run the motor. You see, REALITY isn't bad at all!!

Peter

He He Well I thought this would be much much worse than what I made this job to be. I could not get the bearing seals out, I did take the advice of a guy named Jean he simply sprayed the carb cleaner with the bearing standing up and let it drain through the small tiny gaps. I knew something was going right when I spun the bearing and it got faster, and faster. I could not wait till I got the motor back together

But I am thinking, I will need to keep adding oil to this on a regular basis if I was to run this 24 hours at a time. To bad there is no duralube grease.. Will have to experiment with different types. I am now going to try some duralube on my bearings in my SSG This should be interesting..

[theremart]

Great stuff Mart!

You mentioned an oil heater....I have a forced oil heat unit and the blower motor is one that I want to at least PF correct...and if there is something even more, that is what I'm looking for.

Either way, you mention duralube. Is that the duralube additive? True story...I drove from eastern washington to the coast at the washington and oregon border....and back...had duralube in and found out there was no oil in the car...had drained out and I drove like that for a couple hundred miles...from the last known time I did have oil in...oil filter broke somehow and everything drained out.

The duralube allowed the engine to run without overheating and without oil...just like shown in infomercials.

LONGTERM...it has some microencapsulated chlorine type molecules that will wear down, get out and eat anything that it can...seals, etc... not sure what materials might be there that it can eat on your setup, but bottom line is that stuff is a huge liability. AMSOil has good documentation on the stuff and what it does.

Anyway, vacclaisocryptene is the #1 most advanced (and one of the oldest) oil additives for the closest you can get to friction free oil lubrication as it was designed for the oil and gas production companies to begin with...and they do know what is best. Was a classified war secret for years but has been available commercial for quite some time.

It is something that I deal with because of the documentation behind it. I use it in my cars but I added a few drops of it with a few drops of electric motor oil to drop in my blower motor oil fill caps and it started to run quite a bit smoother and I know that there will never be negative effects from it.

Thanks for sharing that... Yes it was the duralube additive, it was the only one I could find on the shelf, these oils are hard to find, I looked for excel plus, Krul, could not find them.

[Peter Lindemann]

Bearings, Grease, Carb Cleaner and More

He He Well I thought this would be much much worse than what I made this job to be. I could not get the bearing seals out, I did take the advice of a guy named Jean he simply sprayed the carb cleaner with the bearing standing up and let it drain through the small tiny gaps. I knew something was going right when I spun the bearing and it got faster, and faster. I could not wait till I got the motor back together

But I am thinking, I will need to keep adding oil to this on a regular basis if I was to run this 24 hours at a time. To bad there is no duralube grease.. Will have to experiment with different types. I am now going to try some duralube on my bearings in my SSG This should be interesting..

Mart,

When applying Carb Cleaner to a stiff bearing, you want to spray just enough in to loosen it up. When grease sits around for a while, it tends to develop a thin film of material on it that is less slippery. The Carb cleaner can "dissolve" this outer layer so access to the rest of the grease below this layer becomes easier. You don't want to use so much Carb Cleaner that you remove most of the grease, just enough to soften it up. Then you don't have to worry about adding anything else. Also, since most of the grease is still in the bearing, it will redistribute itself properly when the bearing warms up in the first extended run of the motor. After that, (as the Aussie's say) "No problems, Mate!"

To further your understanding of the motor's operation, go to Harbor Freight and pick up a cheap Clamp-On Ammeter. With this, you can independently look at the current circulating in the section of the circuit that goes to the capacitors. Your Kill-A-Watt meter will tell you how many Amps are being drawn from the grid (Real Power), and the Clamp-On Ammeter will tell you how many Amps are circulation in the LC tank (Reactive Power). The combination of Real Power and Reactive Power is what is called Apparent Power, which is what runs the motor. When a motor is NOT Power Factor corrected, you have to buy ALL of the Apparent Power from the grid. When you add the proper capacitors to the circuit, they can provide the proper amount of Reactive Power (VARS) for your motor, and so the only thing the grid needs to supply is the Real Power (WATTS). The motor needs BOTH to run properly. There is no real ENERGY SAVINGS, as the motor is still running on the same amount of Apparent Power. But there is a COST SAVINGS involved in providing all of the necessary Reactive Power yourself.

I know you are in a hurry to run your RV from a battery, but if you slow down, and learn all of these fundamentals first by just running the motor from the grid, you'll make more rapid progress later because you will understand what is happening under "normal" circumstances.

Keep up the great work.

Peter

[theremart]

RE: Getting the basics..

Mart,

When applying Carb Cleaner to a stiff bearing, you want to spray just enough in to loosen it up. When grease sits around for a while, it tends to develop a thin film of material on it that is less slippery. The Carb cleaner can "dissolve" this outer layer so access to the rest of the grease below this layer becomes easier. You don't want to use so much Carb Cleaner that you remove most of the grease, just enough to soften it up. Then you don't have to worry about adding anything else. Also, since most of the grease is still in the bearing, it will redistribute itself properly when the bearing warms up in the first extended run of the motor. After that, (as the Aussie's say) "No problems, Mate!"

To further your understanding of the motor's operation, go to Harbor Freight and pick up a cheap Clamp-On Ammeter. With this, you can independently look at the current circulating in the section of the circuit that goes to the capacitors. Your Kill-A-Watt meter will tell you how many Amps are being drawn from the grid (Real Power), and the Clamp-On Ammeter will tell you how many Amps are circulation in the LC tank (Reactive Power). The combination of Real Power and Reactive Power is what is called Apparent Power, which is what runs the motor. When a motor is NOT Power Factor corrected, you have to buy ALL of the Apparent Power from the grid. When you add the proper capacitors to the circuit, they can provide the proper amount of Reactive Power (VARS) for your motor, and so the only thing the grid needs to supply is the Real Power (WATTS). The motor needs BOTH to run properly. There is no real ENERGY SAVINGS, as the motor is still running on the same amount of Apparent Power. But there is a COST SAVINGS involved in providing all of the necessary Reactive Power yourself.

I know you are in a hurry to run your RV from a battery, but if you slow down, and learn all of these fundamentals first by just running the motor from the grid, you'll make more rapid progress later because you will understand what is happening under "normal" circumstances.

Keep up the great work.

Peter

I have an amp meter already and I that is what I was using to measure the amps I am pulling from the primary battery. I am learning that the batteries I thought I had restored are still not preforming up to par. ( will wait to see if the additive I ordered does them any good )

I am already running this RV from a battery Next I want it to run itself.

If I am missing any steps please let me know, understand I have a very basic understanding of electronics, and I am slowly getting up to speed.

So far I have taken a 5HP motor stripped it down to a 1 HP motor and tunned it. Capacitors are sorta like the motor having its own fridge so it does not have to goto the store ( grid ) to get power all the time.

So maybee I should let the motor run for 24 hours and see how it does... if there are any changes in the way it runs..

To do what you said, I should be measuring the amps at what part of the circuit, in between the caps? I guess I need a load on the caps maybee my 90 V Neo light? might do it.

Ahh back to programing my Pic to autoswap batteries my basic stamp came in ready to hands on program..

[aladinlamp]

Friction

How much energy is wasted in RV or other motors to overcome air resistance?

[Peter Lindemann]

Slow Down

I have an amp meter already and I that is what I was using to measure the amps I am pulling from the primary battery. I am learning that the batteries I thought I had restored are still not preforming up to par. ( will wait to see if the additive I ordered does them any good )

I am already running this RV from a battery Next I want it to run itself.

If I am missing any steps please let me know, understand I have a very basic understanding of electronics, and I am slowly getting up to speed.

So far I have taken a 5HP motor stripped it down to a 1 HP motor and tunned it. Capacitors are sorta like the motor having its own fridge so it does not have to goto the store ( grid ) to get power all the time.

So maybee I should let the motor run for 24 hours and see how it does... if there are any changes in the way it runs..

To do what you said, I should be measuring the amps at what part of the circuit, in between the caps? I guess I need a load on the caps maybee my 90 V Neo light? might do it.

Ahh back to programing my Pic to autoswap batteries my basic stamp came in ready to hands on program..

Mart,

Slow down. The ideas in your mind are running way ahead of your understanding!! I am NOT talking about adding a load to the electrical circuit anywhere. I am not talking about an Ammeter that is connected directly to the wiring. I am not talking about what is happening to your RV running from the battery and inverter.

FIRST, this machine is NOT going to run itself, no matter what you do! Period. End of story. This motor operates on Faraday's direct INDUCTION principle and is still WASTING 95% of its input electricity to the losses of Back EMF (internally generated reverse voltage in the windings). The RV motor, all by itself, is still an UNDER-UNITY machine. Your activities, so far, have reduced all of the other wasted energy in the motor, including bearing friction and recirculating the Reactive Power locally in your capacitors. However, there is NOTHING you can do to get rid of the internally generated Back EMF. This is an event that is generated INSIDE the motor windings and stays INSIDE the motor windings. It is NOT reflected anywhere outside the motor.

That is what the EMS forum is all about; building a different design of motor that doesn't have this problem in the first place.

Please post the current schematic of your motor as it is configured right now. Show all of the wires exactly as they are hooked up, without any "common ground" nomenclature or any other abbreviations. When you post the schematic, I will tell you where to put the meter.

Go to Harbor Freight and buy a Clamp-On Ammeter: Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

With this meter you can measure currents in wires that you do not have to disconnect.

I know you are excited, but SLOW means taking deliberate steps, and moving from knowledge to knowledge in each step. SLOW is actually the fastest way that works!!!

Peter

[aladinlamp]

Is there any european version of kill-a-watt for 50hz - 240V grid?

[theremart]

RE: Question about 50 hz

Is there any european version of kill-a-watt for 50hz - 240V grid?

Yes I do believe so Ash was doing one in Aussie land where they had 50 hz.

Ash would be the one who can answer that question better.. He is the master of this, or at least the communicator of this device

[theremart]

Re: Next steps..

>Slow down. The ideas in your mind are running way ahead of your >understanding!! I am NOT talking about adding a load to the electrical circuit >anywhere. I am not talking about an Ammeter that is connected directly to >the wiring. I am not talking about what is happening to your RV running from >the battery and inverter.

Yep I own this meter as I was trying to explain to you before, ( sorry I am not the worlds best comunicator I am a geek

Digital Snap-Around Volt-Amp Meter with Free 2008 Doctor Watts Shirt-Pocket Electrical Guide - Mfg# DSA-500




>FIRST, this machine is NOT going to run itself, no matter what you do! >Period. End of story. This motor operates on Faraday's direct INDUCTION >principle and is still WASTING 95% of its input electricity to the losses of >Back EMF (internally generated reverse voltage in the windings). The RV >motor, all by itself, is still an UNDER-UNITY machine. Your activities, so far, >have reduced all of the other wasted energy in the motor, including bearing >friction and recirculating the Reactive Power locally in your capacitors. >However, there is NOTHING you can do to get rid of the internally generated >Back EMF. This is an event that is generated INSIDE the motor windings and >stays INSIDE the motor windings. It is NOT reflected anywhere outside the >motor.

Ok, my target is to emulate what Hector has done with his looped system, I may be calling it the wrong thing, but I watched his video of his motor running another generator then it was looped to itself. I understand that this motor by itself should not be able to power itself, I am targeting my next steps..


>That is what the EMS forum is all about; building a different design of motor >that doesn't have this problem in the first place.

Yes, I see that, and I have been counting the cost of making my rotor square
verses leaving it the way it is and doing hectors method. Both of you have means of harnessing the energy, and I respect you both, I am just trying to get my brain around both of your methods and see which one will work for me.

To do your method, I was considering buying an small DC motor with tight fittings as you prescribe and making the rotor square and cutting off the coils.

The method I am exploring here is first building the basic Rotoverter

Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:Panacea - PESWiki

( Prime mover first )

Then moving on to a generator, either this coupled to another motor, ( rewired to be a generator, or a generator proper from harbor frieght )

Then thinking about taking the output from the genertor to feed either the prime mover, or a set of batteries that can be swapped with the prime mover batteries.

Then considering doing Hectors setup...

virtual circulating current with RotoVerter by Hector


>Please post the current schematic of your motor as it is configured right >now. Show all of the wires exactly as they are hooked up, without any >"common ground" nomenclature or any other abbreviations. When you post >the schematic, I will tell you where to put the meter.

This is the link to the schematic setup I have now..

http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/RVcircuit.JPG

>Go to Harbor Freight and buy a Clamp-On Ammeter: >Harbor >Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

>With this meter you can measure currents in wires that you do not have to >disconnect.

I believe the meter that I have matches this meter, I am right?
Digital Snap-Around Volt-Amp Meter with Free 2008 Doctor Watts Shirt-Pocket Electrical Guide - Mfg# DSA-500

>I know you are excited, but SLOW means taking deliberate steps, and moving >from knowledge to knowledge in each step. SLOW is actually the fastest >way that works!!!


Yes, that is why I am looking at all my alternatives for a generator before I invest. I like the harbor freight generator because it has all the circuitry built in with fuses for overload protection. If I use another motor as my generator I will have to build my own circuit to make it work.

The next step from what I hear from Ash may be building a better inverter that can give me more HP out of the motor, and less current.

Peter, I do value your input, and thanks for being patient with a mad scientists as me he he

[Peter Lindemann]

OK

[QUOTE=theremart;17155]>Slow down. The ideas in your mind are running way ahead of your >understanding!! I am NOT talking about adding a load to the electrical circuit >anywhere. I am not talking about an Ammeter that is connected directly to >the wiring. I am not talking about what is happening to your RV running from >the battery and inverter.

Yep I own this meter as I was trying to explain to you before, ( sorry I am not the worlds best comunicator I am a geek

Digital Snap-Around Volt-Amp Meter with Free 2008 Doctor Watts Shirt-Pocket Electrical Guide - Mfg# DSA-500

The method I am exploring here is first building the basic Rotoverter

Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:Panacea - PESWiki

Then considering doing Hectors setup...

virtual circulating current with RotoVerter by Hector

Mart,

Yes, your Clamp-On meter is just fine. The video of Hector is a perfect example of why I believe what I do. He is showing that the RV motor side is running on 175 WATTS of Real Power, and the generator side is producing 208 volts and 7.6 amps, or 1508 VARS of Reactive Power, measured to and from the Capacitor load on the generator. He refers to this as "circulating current" which is exactly what it is. This film shows ZERO WATTS of Real Power coming out of the generator.

Reactive Power does NOT produce any Back EMF in the generator, so the motor is still operating at, essentially, no load. There is no way (shown here) to use the power from the generator to run the motor. I am not trying to be a "pain in the ass", I am trying to help you form a clear picture in your mind of what is possible and what is not.

We all agree that Ash is the RV Master here. So I ask you, Ash, how many "fully self-running" RV motor/generators have you seen in your life? What am I missing here?

Peter

[theremart]

Ok...

This is what I got from Hector for next steps...

I may of misunderstood Hector, as he is hard to follow as he like Tesla has his own way of saying things. I do see what Hector has works, so I will work to understand him.

------------------------

You can try looping the Capacitor phase power back to inverter 12V
side ... (remember Reactive components must be 90 degrees from each
other (series) or in phase with capacitor bridge coupling .

transformer 120VAC primary to 12-12 18.9 0r 24V secundary

diode bridge low voltage secundary to feed DC buss at battery side

with care not overdrive overvoltage inverter to death (burn it)

can try semy resonating other phases as well in tripleflux mode
and feed back power in same way ..

Find more info on LOOPED lawnmower experiments ....
Diode Plug , kone recovery circuits ..

Alternator can also be used or Efficient PM generator (Check Norman
Wootan RV test readings , check Kones Torque RV readings ..

Concentrate on 2 issues , tuning & efficiency .

Hector

[esaruoho]

[QUOTE=Peter Lindemann;17173]

Then considering doing Hectors setup...
virtual circulating current with RotoVerter by Hector

The video of Hector is a perfect example of why I believe what I do. He is showing that the RV motor side is running on 175 WATTS of Real Power, and the generator side is producing 208 volts and 7.6 amps, or 1508 VARS of Reactive Power, measured to and from the Capacitor load on the generator. He refers to this as "circulating current" which is exactly what it is. This film shows ZERO WATTS of Real Power coming out of the generator.
Peter

peter, could you somehow "draw"what this reactive power looks like? i see all these reactive power recovery circuits being suggested for recovering some of the resonance, the connection between these diode recovery circuits and the bedini sine wave clip ping circuit,
people are doing those fullw ave bridge rectification things, i see sinewaves with only the top or the bottom, out of phase, etc, etc.
but it appears that they are extracting a small amount of the reactive power without stopping the process, i.e., not robbing the motor but skimming off a little bit of the cream.
im seeing a neon peak recovery circuit provided by david kousolides
Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:NeonPeak - PESWiki
theres also a hector diode recovery circuit
.. and others. surely there is a method to this mayhem, a connection between bedini's reactive power recovery circuits and another viewpoint from the RV by extracting resonance or reactive power or what it is.

it appears to this musician that they aren't necessarily only using the motors to run, but instead to extract the reactive power and the resonance and the tuning. i'ev seen this mentioned, peripherally, in a few other inventions, but it appears to go into tech build jargon very quickly. ive not yet seen a layman explanation of the "resonance clipping" or "reactive power recovery", but i know its coming, it has to be. too many people are moving on from merely getting energy savings from these contraptions.

i saw this on a little page on the "resonant power extraction circuit", it starts with:
" Power Extraction from Resonance - Sometimes we need the circuits to extract power from resonance or virtual reactive power circulation. Sometimes just to limit the voltage growth in a BEMF collection capacitor. "
"Hector's claims that the resonance holds the radiant energy circulation - where we can extract a large portion of it without stopping the resonance.
(Quote) A simple LC has a DECAY value in time; the only energy you need to supply is the one lost to decay, as if the system source were a negative inductor to LC (as in the case of RV alternator). Normal entropy decay is 0.618 of 1.618 as logarithmic time receding signal (search for Seike work in ultra-relativity concepts), so the gain is also in atropic system of 1.618 where frequency increase in octaves may increase amplification by a factor of 3.141592 where the spiral resonant circular projection can be expressed in a 12,000 4d polygon structure (as similar to double helix DNA structure - reason human system is OU by all definitions). Remember LOGARITHMIC SPIRALS ORBITAL DECAY PATH IS RELATIVE to gravity as SIGNAL DECAY OR GAIN IS RELATIVE TO LC Q and parameters in a working ZPE system.

It can be done either way, using a reactance to charge a cap, or discharge a cap in a reactive circuit; the resonant condition creates a logarithmic path where VAR power is created and carries a magnetic amplification component with it.
(End quote)"

please could you, well, erm, be the voice of reason, and react?

[Peter Lindemann]

Voice of Reason

[QUOTE=esaruoho;17204]

peter, could you somehow "draw"what this reactive power looks like? i see all these reactive power recovery circuits being suggested for recovering some of the resonance, the connection between these diode recovery circuits and the bedini sine wave clip ping circuit,
people are doing those fullw ave bridge rectification things, i see sinewaves with only the top or the bottom, out of phase, etc, etc.
but it appears that they are extracting a small amount of the reactive power without stopping the process, i.e., not robbing the motor but skimming off a little bit of the cream.
im seeing a neon peak recovery circuit provided by david kousolides
Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:NeonPeak - PESWiki
theres also a hector diode recovery circuit
.. and others. surely there is a method to this mayhem, a connection between bedini's reactive power recovery circuits and another viewpoint from the RV by extracting resonance or reactive power or what it is.

it appears to this musician that they aren't necessarily only using the motors to run, but instead to extract the reactive power and the resonance and the tuning. i'ev seen this mentioned, peripherally, in a few other inventions, but it appears to go into tech build jargon very quickly. ive not yet seen a layman explanation of the "resonance clipping" or "reactive power recovery", but i know its coming, it has to be. too many people are moving on from merely getting energy savings from these contraptions.

i saw this on a little page on the "resonant power extraction circuit", it starts with:
" Power Extraction from Resonance - Sometimes we need the circuits to extract power from resonance or virtual reactive power circulation. Sometimes just to limit the voltage growth in a BEMF collection capacitor. "
"Hector's claims that the resonance holds the radiant energy circulation - where we can extract a large portion of it without stopping the resonance.
(Quote) A simple LC has a DECAY value in time; the only energy you need to supply is the one lost to decay, as if the system source were a negative inductor to LC (as in the case of RV alternator). Normal entropy decay is 0.618 of 1.618 as logarithmic time receding signal (search for Seike work in ultra-relativity concepts), so the gain is also in atropic system of 1.618 where frequency increase in octaves may increase amplification by a factor of 3.141592 where the spiral resonant circular projection can be expressed in a 12,000 4d polygon structure (as similar to double helix DNA structure - reason human system is OU by all definitions). Remember LOGARITHMIC SPIRALS ORBITAL DECAY PATH IS RELATIVE to gravity as SIGNAL DECAY OR GAIN IS RELATIVE TO LC Q and parameters in a working ZPE system.

It can be done either way, using a reactance to charge a cap, or discharge a cap in a reactive circuit; the resonant condition creates a logarithmic path where VAR power is created and carries a magnetic amplification component with it.
(End quote)"

please could you, well, erm, be the voice of reason, and react?

Dear esaruoho,

Thank you for this post and the link to the "neon peak recovery circuit". THIS APPROACH HAS MERIT!!!!! Going back to what I posted about Tesla's "Method of Conversion", clipping the VOLTAGE PEAK of a resonant tank created by an AC generator feeding a Capacitive load, IS the first method he discusses. The trick is to clip the top of the voltage rise JUST AS THE CURRENT DROPS TO THE ZERO POINT. In a 60 cycle system, that gives you about a millisecond to clip. Under these circumstances, this system WOULD tap Radiant Energy (voltage without current) just as Hector apparently claims.

The discussion about "false triggering" of the SCR's is interesting. My guess would be that the "false triggering" is coming from the neon bulb more than the SCR. 50% failure rate on a commercially available semi-conductor device seems excessive.

There may be simpler circuits that accomplish this in a more reliable way.

Thank you, again for posting this. I now see that there is more to the RV project than just Power Factor Correcting a 3-phase motor. This recovery process will work in ANY situation where an AC generator is supplying Reactive Power to a capacitive load.

Good luck with your experiments!

Peter