Gray Tube Replication

[Beshires1]

Now, look at how I produced the event. See if you can positively identify. just what happened. This was not simply shorting out a cap thru the coil. Or thru the tube for that matter.

http://sites.google.com/site/chasingedgreysideas/Home/Ed%20Grey%20Dual%20Ign.%20Coil.bmp

[Aaron]

How the Gray Tube Works 2 & 3

GRAY TUBE - HOW IT WORKS - YOUTUBE

[lamare]

How the tube works...

Aaron, thanks for the pictures and you explanation.

However, I think you are wrong in how the tube works. There is not supposed to be a discharge from the low voltage rod to C2. How could you gain any energy by just having electrons you already had jump over a spark gap into a cap? That idea just doesn't cut it! What's more, that's also totally inconsistent with the observation in McKays file ( http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/MKay5.pdf ) where they observe more power with increasing resistance at the low-voltage rod.


I think the only logical explanation of what is going on is that a ver very *short* spark emits radio-waves, both normal transversal waves as well as *longitudinal* waves, across a wide spectrum running well into the 10s of Ghz, at least 60 GHz, judging by Bose's experiments with micro-waves ( J.C. Bose: 60 GHz in the 1890s ).

In an article about Loeb and Meeks 'The Mechanism of The Electric Spark' ( The mechanism of the electric spark and its possible role in tapping Radiant Energy ), you can find the following:

"When the free electrons are absorbed by the high voltage anode the free electrons become bound again, and give up a quanta of electromagnetic radiation. Because of the huge increase in free electrons developed in avalanche the amount of EMR given off by the high voltage anode is in the range of hundred to thousand
fold increase. Thus the huge "Radiant Event". [...] When Mark [Mckay] and I were first doing research on the Gray Circuit we (especially he) kept blowing up components. It was a year before I read the rare book by Loeb and Meek that explained why the components were blowing up. There was a current gain of 500% with the open air, high voltage spark gap."

"If Loeb and Meek are correct then if we assume a spark gap of 3 mm and a voltage of 5,000 volts there are roughly 2,000 electrons created by avalanche for every one electron leaving the cathode. They state that most of these 'free electrons' are absorbed by the anode. [...] In conclusion: Sparks and Arcs are two different beast. My initial research into the amperage necessary to form an arc does not apply to spark and the process of avalanche where this huge gain mechanism is possible."

So, here it is clearly said that you want just a *spark* and not an *arc*, because you want the process of avalanche to occur, which I think should be attributed to longitudinal waves bouncing back and forth between the rod and grids. The reason for that is that Tesla's wireless power transmission system could only have worked if he used longitudinal waves *and* if these tap of ZPE and strenghten themselves. Otherwise, you can never transmit a decent amount of power trough the air without a focussed beam. Since Tesla used spheres mounted as high as possible, he definately did not use anything even close to focussed beam, and therefore the (longitudunal) waves he used must somehow have tapped ZPE, most likely by kicking positron-electron pairs floating around in the vacuum to such an extent that they separate and become free charge particles, adding additional force to the shock wave.

[broli]

Lol I thought it was a different Aaron at ou.com but it was you after all. Anyway, you made a good presentation.

[Aaron]

Lamare??

Lamare,

You must be commenting on someone else's post because your comments don't seem to have anything to do with anything I have said.

Nowhere in any video, picture or comment did I ever say anything about any discharge leaving the LV rod.

[lamare]

Hmm. I probably misunderstood then. I was referring to the images just above....
I'll study your diagrams again in the train on the way home.

[Aaron]

diagrams and comments

You may be mistaking the grid as the HV rod. Forget about looking at the tube and what the tube visually implies. I have clearly labeled each item and have shown the HV rod jumping to the GRID first and not to the LV rod. This is the ONLY way that C2 behind the inductor could get charged.

Video Explanation of How The Gray Tube Works

YouTube - Here's how the Gray Tube works

Discussion Forum

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...plication.html

My explanation appears to be the only thing that is finally consistent with the patents.

Theories aside, it doesn't matter if there is electron cascade, RF or anything else.

What matters at this point is the mechanics of the step-by-step function of what is happening and I believe I have shown it accurately.

Just about everyone, including myself, seems to have believed C1 is discharged into the tube and this causes an outward event that is captured by the grids and that powers the load. This is evidently NOT the case. It is the inverse. John showed electron movement from rods to grids so he knew all along exactly how it worked or what can be taken from his drawings at least that it was C2 that was powering the load.

As it was mentioned, the patent does say that but nobody is doing what the patent says. The "choices" that seem to be of debate were primarily with the diode placement. Was Gray wrong and Bedini right? Bedini has it right and I still have reason to believe this.

The grids are the standing potential of C2 until LV rod is switched. That standing HV electrostatic potential may or may not be polarizing the ambient air in the tube, special gas, etc... All speculation on gases, vacuum, etc... are evidently not required for the effect although it may be necessary to increase the strength of the effect. None of that is known at this time I don't believe. The Grids are the extension of C2 as an extension to the dipole. The potential is already there and doesn't have to get there.

I pointed out in the past but it went unnoticed that even on John's SG's, the positive potential of the battery is ALREADY sitting in the coil. Then when switched on the negative, which it is, it is the negative potential that slams into the coil without resistance...the positive potential doesn't have to encounter resistance entering the coil because it is again, ALREADY sitting there as an extension of the dipole (battery).

The Grids are an extension of C2 and the + potential is ALREADY sitting in the inductive load. It doesn't have to move into it and meet resistance. When LV rod is switched on, some serious negative potential (not necessarily electrons at all - anti-photon potential) moves with negative resistance TO the grids, into the load and into the cap.

I can see now why at higher voltages and higher speeds that inductive load could get covered with ice.

If everyone can see it, the analogy to lightening and how the tube works are not a joke.

Anyway, C1 gets charged as I show...directly from the power supply, over HV rod directly over gap to the GRIDS, through inductor and to C2...that is exactly how C2 is charged.

The C2-cap/Load-inductor, I suppose can be tuned for resonance at whatever frequency the power supply is operating at for maximum efficiency in charging that capacitor. The wire on the Gray motor appears to be pretty large diameter.

Then while C2 is charged up -- the commutator or whatever turns on the switch at the LV ROD gives a low potential path to ground for C2 to discharge to.

If grids are only covering the HV rod, then C2 can't jump directly to LV rod, it must jump to HV rod first forcing a collision into HV + potential of C1, THEN, it jumps to LV rod back to ground.

It is of course very apparent that the power supply + potential is also at the HV rod in addition to whatever charge is in C1...so C2 is colliding with that as well (if and only if the power supply happens to be on a ON cycle at that time).

My grids are almost 1 cm from the rods so they obviously need to be closer if C2 is going to be able to discharge during the OFF cycle of the power supply.

But if the power supply is operating at 6khz for example, then there will almost be a continuous spark from HV rod to Grids for practical purposes and therefore will act as a conductive pathway for C2 to discharge over towards the Grids. If this is the case, then a wider gap beyond the breakdown gap for C2 can be there.

My C2 was discharging as low as about 700 volts over a gap of almost 1 cm from Grids to HV rod and was able to do so only when it met with a HV spark from HV rod to Grid from the power supply.

I believe that it makes the most sense to have the grids only over HV rod and not the whole setup for these reasons of forcing the collision with the HV potential of C1.

I also think that the spacing between HV rod and Grids should be close enough so that the potential in C2 could discharge when LV Rod is switched on all by itself without having to have the power supply on. With keeping the ROD gap the same, there could be a comparison between C2 discharging by itself with close gap or using HV spark form HV rod and compare coil-popping strength...that is the only sure way to know what is best.

The spacing between the HV rod and LV rod should be worked out by having the gap wider and closer and seeing what makes a stronger pop at the coil...that is the only way to know.

So, after all, it is about discharging from the Grids (C2) into the tube and not the other way around.

[Aaron]

How the Gray Tube Works PDF

PDF of explanation

http://www.esmhome.org/library/edwin_gray/howthegraytubeworks.pdf

[Beshires1]

Duhhh, I believe MY video showed the discharge from the Grid. What ever.

[lamare]

Aaron: if you take a look at the first schematic in http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/MKay5.pdf , you'll see the low voltage rod connected directly to ground using a 100 k resistor, and the grids connected directly to ground using a 500 Ohm / 50 watt resistor.

The high voltage rod is being driven by a magnet quenched gap, pulsing very short high voltage spikes being discharged across the spark-gap inside the tube. So, no coil, no c2, no S1. Just a HV spark into the HV rod.

Tad Johnson reports:

"ERE does NOT manifest if there is no resistor on the spark gap end of the CSET. Repeat ZERO POWER if no resistor in place. The more resistance, the more the effect appears to manifest.
With 300 Ohm or more of resistance the grid starts to put off a FRIGHTENING amount of power.
Enough to smoke a 50watt, 500 ohm resistor in less than 30 seconds. My input was 12 watts total from the wall. Output from the CSET grid is UNMEASURABLE. Grounding is also becoming an issue since I cannot run the end of the CSET back to ground with a resistor in between. Also, the energy coming off the grid appears to be harmful even with fast rise and fall times
contrary to other information out there."

So, these guys seem to have very interesting results, without complicated charging of the grids, caps, etc.
Basically all they did was feed a very short spark into the HV rod, connect the LV rod trough a resistor to ground and connect the grid trough a fat resistor to ground....

BTW: there are more interesting documents on Mc Gray's site, like:

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter5.pdf

I wonder wat ever happened to Tad Johnson and why they apparantly quit their experiments.

[lamare]

This chapter 5 has a very interesting piece about Gray and his tube:

"The power tube presented to the public by Ed Gray snr. (but designed by Marvin Cole) operates by generating a series of very short, very sharp pulses using a spark gap.

Edwin Gray worked as a US Air Force engineer and machine-shop technician. Having discussed the matter with an associate of Nikola Tesla, in 1958 Ed discovered that the magnetic field generated by the very fast discharge of a high voltage source could pick up additional energy. (This was not actually a new discovery as Nicola Tesla had already burnt out a power station when he tried this on a large scale). It is said that in the seventies, Edwin built a device to capture this extra energy, however, it is almost certain that Ed Gray did not build the original system, nor did he understand how it actually operated. The designer and builder, Marvin Cole, unfortunately died, leaving Ed in a difficult position, which he tried, fairly ineffectively, to overcome.
[...]
His patents can not be relied on as Ed did not understand the basic principles of operation of the system, and as well as that, he did not want to disclose anything if he could. The patents were just to encourage investors."

[boguslaw]

Aaron and lamare

IMO Both of you are right, but circuit in patent is spoiled.

Grids and C2 are BOTH part of the oscillating circuit, however connection to battery is misplaced or spoiled. That's why batteries exploded and capacitor 2 was a point of debate between Gray and engineers.

Here we have Tesla oscillating circuit with a HUGE - improvement. That improvement is CSET - multipactor which becomes one side capacitor from two side one (grids + plasma -> grids only) That means Gray circuit originally incorporates at least 3 patents !

The results are : very high frequency oscillations of HUGE (and I mean HUGE) power. A lot of problems with that because capacitor 2 and battery cannot restrain so much power.However in perfect circuit capacitor 2 MUST be part of oscillator and commutoator MUST have a second path to let circuit FREELY oscillate between multipactor and capacitor 2.

Well, I think we are not prepared for correctly build Gray circuit (or rather Marvin Cole circuit)

Anyone seeing commutator without two condensers in typical tesla oscillator circuit should ask: where is the rest of the circuit ?

It is here , but IMHO spoiled, because commutator is not a make and break device between CSET and C2 .

Anyway,it's just a theory...

[Beshires1]

Aaron and lamare

IMO Both of you are right, but circuit in patent is spoiled.

Grids and C2 are BOTH part of the oscillating circuit, however connection to battery is misplaced or spoiled. That's why batteries exploded and capacitor 2 was a point of debate between Gray and engineers.

Here we have Tesla oscillating circuit with a HUGE - improvement. That improvement is CSET - multipactor which becomes one side capacitor from two side one (grids + plasma -> grids only) That means Gray circuit originally incorporates at least 3 patents !

The results are : very high frequency oscillations of HUGE (and I mean HUGE) power. A lot of problems with that because capacitor 2 and battery cannot restrain so much power.However in perfect circuit capacitor 2 MUST be part of oscillator and commutoator MUST have a second path to let circuit FREELY oscillate between multipactor and capacitor 2.

Well, I think we are not prepared for correctly build Gray circuit (or rather Marvin Cole circuit)

Anyone seeing commutator without two condensers in typical tesla oscillator circuit should ask: where is the rest of the circuit ?

It is here , but IMHO spoiled, because commutator is not a make and break device between CSET and C2 .

Anyway,it's just a theory...

I think we'll find the answers in the commutator.Huge capacitors quickly discharged thru big coils very very rapidly = massive amount of powerful backspikes.

[Aaron]

Gray's patents

http://radiant.100free.com/zpe_gray.html

On the Gray's Zero point energy page, the following statement is made following the graphic of his CSET;

"Capacitor 38 and inductive load 36 constitutes a tank circuit that resonates at 6Khz."

This would seem to indicate that each coil, stator and capacitor should have very strict values of inductance, capacitance and impedance. Does anyone have any idea of what these values should be? The values I have come up with are entirely unreasonable and likely indicate that I'm using flawed math. Any help will be appreciated.

The load and C2 (c2 in my diagrams being the cap on backside of inductor) is supposed to tuned for 6khz. That is the EXACT frequency that his power supply on the front side is operating at.

Please see both of these documents on Peter Lindemann's website:

http://www.free-energy.ws/pdf/ems_inverter.pdf

http://www.free-energy.ws/pdf/static_generator.pdf

Gray states in one of his patents that the capacitor on the back side of the load is to capture the spike coming off the coil after power is turned off.

It seems that although it could capture the spike from the coil, it doesn't exclude the possibility that the coil and cap is tuned to receive an efficient charge from the front side power supply as I've shown.

Gray says that the HV cap on the front side is what is discharged across the rod gap and the grids intercept this. This is what I always thought and seems to be the school of thought that all our projects have been based on.

If the cap behind the inductor is not being charged from the power source, what is the point of having the cap/inductor tuned to the exact frequency of the power supply?

6khz obviously has nothing to do with motor running speed since it obviously would be pointless to have a car motor that only runs at one fixed rpm.

I think Gray's patent/comments in the patent are full of misrepresentations and there is enough to put together what is happening. The best patents have a lot of intentional misleading info.

Any comments from anyone on this from anyone?

[Aaron]

schematic

Hi Lamare,

That diagram is only their particular setup and attempt based on how they wanted to test it. I am aware of the concept that there is a resistor at the LV rod. I did not include one because it doesn't seem to be needed for the effect but it could of course increase the effect. They're using a neon transformer, which also clearly is not what was used by Gray, etc... there are modifications in that schematic that have nothing to do with the Patent.

Anyone working on this that has no experience with the water sparkplug circuit... I highly recommend building that because much of this becomes very, very apparent.