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  • #16
    Very close - the only real difference in my idea was separate systems for generation and return - but I think your way is probably better. I don't think we need the side and bottom conveyors - those could be replaced with a slide for the shuttles to follow and there should be enough kinetic energy to slide it right into the airlock in one single drop. So when it goes over the edge, the airlock should be open and ready to receive it.

    We could calculate the gravitational potential energy involved and see if a gain can be produced for a single bottle path.

    When the airlock is flooded, the Gravitational Potential Energy (EGP) of the shuttle becomes negative according to the displacement weight of the water minus the EGP of the bottle in air at that height (using EGP = mgh where g = 9.81).

    I just weighed a 2L bottle full of air @ 300 feet above sea level. Here it weighs 57g. So that is the mass of the bottle. The same bottle filled with tap water weighs 2182g. I am neglecting the thickness of the bottle wall which will undoubtedly displace some volume itself - so these calculations will be on the conservative side.

    So our displacement weight will be 2182 - 57 = 2125g

    The overall height of a 2L bottle is exactly 12 inches or 0.3048m.
    The diameter is 4 inches or 0.1016m

    Let us suppose we have a tank that is 2.5m deep. And let us suppose it stands on a support frame 0.5m tall. So all together, the overall height is 3m tall. When our shuttle (a 2L bottle as described) is at the top of the tank, floating on the water it will have a center height of 3.1016m minus that amount that is submerged which will equate to the 57g of water displaced. For ease of calculations and to be on the conservative side we can reduce the height to 3.1m

    On the outside of the tank then, our shuttle would have a EGPEGP of the water that replaces the shuttle has that value. Where do we get the 0.6524 value from? That is the height off the ground, 0.5m plus the center of the bottle height in the airlock which is (0.3048 / 2). So that is the mass center of the shuttle at rest in the airlock. I used a negative in this case for the -2.125 to indicate that the force vector on the shuttle was away from the Earth. From these calculations, we would expect the shuttle to obtain a kinetic energy of 51.02J - 1.73J = 49.29J by the time it reaches the surface. If this were true, we would have plenty of energy left to open the interior gate and move the shuttle over the edge of the tank.

    But there is a serious issue here - drag:
    Use of a Drag Coefficient to Calculate Drag Force due to Fluid Flow past an Immersed Solid

    We would have to accurately model the drag on the shuttle as it moves through the water. This would no doubt lead us to apply methods of reducing that drag, which by far is greatly associated with waters adhesive characteristics. We would want our shuttle to be a slippery as possible in the fluid and the same with the submerged conveyor. Otherwise, the greatest amount of energy would be expended in friction with the water resulting in heating the water with nothing left for us to use.

    This calculation used EGP as the means of evaluating the energy involved - but the more common approach would be to use fluid dynamics and pressures. It would be interesting to compare the two results and see if mistakes have been made in the above calculations and if so where.

    "Amy Pond, there is something you need to understand, and someday your life may depend on it: I am definitely a madman with a box." ~The Doctor

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Matos de Matos View Post
      Hi Harvey

      I am stuck with the time. How long will take the weight (500 Kg) to pressure water by gravity at height of 5m in tank with 0,2827 m2 of area?
      In the Hyper Physics analysis Pressure Pressure[ATTACH]6437[/ATTACH]
      "Amy Pond, there is something you need to understand, and someday your life may depend on it: I am definitely a madman with a box." ~The Doctor

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Harvey View Post
        [/SIZE][/SIZE]EGP[SIZE=1][SIZE=2] of the water that replaces the shuttle has that value. Where do we get the 0.6524 value from? That is the height off the ground, 0.5m plus the center of the bottle height in the airlock which is (0.3048 / 2). So that is the mass center of the shuttle at rest in the airlock. I used a negative in this case for the -2.125 to indicate that the force vector on the shuttle was away from the Earth. From these calculations, we would expect the shuttle to obtain a kinetic energy of 51.02J - 1.73J = 49.29J by the time it reaches the surface. If this were true, we would have plenty of energy left to open the interior gate and move the shuttle over the edge of the tank.

        :
        Hi Harvey:

        Do you think that we can use the extra force of the air bubbling up in the cups to help pumping the water in the air lock ( > 0.002182m3) back to the tank?
        We will need ≥ 53.459 J to pump it, and we have only 49.29 J.

        David

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Matos de Matos View Post
          Hi Harvey:

          Do you think that we can use the extra force of the air bubbling up in the cups to help pumping the water in the air lock ( > 0.002182m3) back to the tank?
          We will need ≥ 53.459 J to pump it, and we have only 49.29 J.

          David
          You are right. I was imagining that only the water surrounding the shuttle would be drained when the airlock opened, but the airlock must completely fill to evacuate the shuttle and so that water will be dropped. Also the volume will be greater than the shuttle because it is the entire airlock volume . I just didn't think that through well enough

          So there is no real advantage then.

          Is there a way we could use wicks and capillary action to lift the water? Perhaps a series of trays, each with an inverted 'J' wick up to the next one


          Yes the air would help move the conveyor, but I don't see how it can offset the total weight of the water even with the shuttles help. I'm afraid this concept too is flawed - if we are going to lose that much water, we may as well run it over a water wheel

          Sorry for the diversion.

          Perhaps there is a way to use city water pressure and a resonant water oscillation effect without actually flowing the water. If we keep the air at just the right temp it will compress and expand in the pipe and resonate. The temp can be ambient perhaps. I've read up on this, but have not studied it in full detail - but I have seen this happen first hand for long periods until the energy is fully dissipated. And in that case, the energy comes from the environment.

          Just throwing out ideas.

          "Amy Pond, there is something you need to understand, and someday your life may depend on it: I am definitely a madman with a box." ~The Doctor

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