Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter "Replications"

[Farmhand]

Ok I was wondering if someone could point me to a reference of Tesla weighing
his coils ? Is the primary supposed to be the same weight or a quarter.

Or if by length, if the secondary is 250 meters long and has a resonant
frequency of 640 Khz then if I use a piece of wire 1/4 that length it would be
62.5 meters long and if I wound that on the outside of the secondary it would
give me about 400 turns for the primary and it's resonant frequency would be in
the Mhz.

Here's a diagram showing the voltage gradients on the coil for the different
frequencies.


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I don't get it, I tune my coils to be resonant so that the secondary shows a
sine wave and the maximum potential is automatically at the terminal.

Full wave resonance would show a minimum at the center and both ends and
two maximums between them.

Half wave resonance would show a minimum at both ends and one maximum
between them.

And quarter wave resonance would show a minimum at the bottom and the
maximum at the top which is what we want.

Granted, the oscillations of the primary are indeed setting the frequency for
the quarter wave resonance. But there is no guarantee that a primary 1/4 the
length of the secondary will oscillate at 4 times the frequency of the resonant
frequency of the secondary. It must be made to be like that. Which can be
done different ways.

I challenge anyone to cut two pieces of wire one being 1/4 the length or
weight of the other then wind them into a Tesla air cored transformer and
show me resonance of both the primary and secondary without adjustment.

If a given secondary is 1/4 wave resonant at say 640 Khz then the primary
can be resonant the same at the same frequency and in fact is better like
that.

Are you guys saying the primary for the secondary resonant at 640 Khz should
be resonant at 4 x 640 Khz = 2560 Khz itself ?

If not what exactly is it you are saying ? What is the intended result of the
weighing of the coils or as some have suggested making the primary 1/4 the
length of the secondary ? In technical terms.

Cheers

[dR-Green]

Hi Farmhand. I've been away nearly up in north Wales for a couple of days camping in the forest and watching the World Rally Championship, I ran out of time as usual before leaving so didn't get a chance to say. Now I'm back and still wiped out after 18 hours of sleep

Ok I was wondering if someone could point me to a reference of Tesla weighing
his coils ? Is the primary supposed to be the same weight or a quarter.

Or if by length, if the secondary is 250 meters long and has a resonant
frequency of 640 Khz then if I use a piece of wire 1/4 that length it would be
62.5 meters long and if I wound that on the outside of the secondary it would
give me about 400 turns for the primary and it's resonant frequency would be in
the Mhz.

I'm not aware of Tesla mentioning weight (or mass) matching anywhere except that Eric Dollard says it. If the skin effect of whatever energy applies over a piece of wire, then why would it follow the path of the wire in a helical coil? It can equally see the whole coil as one big mass of copper and go straight up it, as if the winding itself around a cylinder is just a very wide cable = big surface area.

Maybe that's something else to take into consideration. But then where is the reference that the primary should be 1/4 wavelength of the secondary? What I've picked up regarding the 1/4 wavelength thing is in relation to a source of energy that you're tapping into, IE for the radiant energy patents. Like a basic radio works.

So, my ideas of "1/4 wavelength tuning" goes something like 1/4 wavelength secondary of whatever natural frequency that you intend to work with, NOT in relation to any other piece of wire in any coil in the whole setup.

For example like a basic radio, you'd make a full wave transmitter, and have a quarter wave receiver. Don't ask me how the primary would apply to all of this because I haven't thought that far ahead But if the receiver "secondary" is 1/4 wavelength then it will be smaller than having the size of a radio transmitter in your house, and the part with greatest potential will fit between both ends of the wire and allow you to receive nicely.

So if you want to tap the energy of lightning, then use quarter wavelength secondary of the frequency of lightning is how I would go about it.

It was the odd number multiple that caught my attention. So my example coil would be 1 metre primary, 9 metre secondary, and just because Eric Dollard says it and for reasons that make sense in my head, try to use wires that are are somewhat equal in weight/mass at these lengths.

So then if you make the secondary 1/4 wave of a natural source, the primary an odd division in length of wire and set the whole thing into motion, then the natural harmonic would coincide with the top of the coil where the peak of the wave will be. Don't ask me what effect an odd division length of primary would have, maybe to try and get both wires more closely matched with all the circuitry and terminals etc?

Though I don't know which patent the odd multiple came from still. If it's not the spiral coils patent, then it's the MT I believe.

The only 1/4 wavelength thing that makes sense to me is that the secondary needs to be 1/4 wavelength to have maximum potential at the top, of whatever energy that's coming into it. IE the "free energy" stuff through allowing the oscillation to grow via being tuned to a natural source from the environment.

I challenge anyone to cut two pieces of wire one being 1/4 the length or
weight of the other then wind them into a Tesla air cored transformer and
show me resonance of both the primary and secondary without adjustment

I won't be doing that (yet at least) because I I haven't been on about 1/4 length, but I will make a few coils based around odd numbers, and in time also bringing weight into it

[MonsieurM]

Have you thought that maybe the weight is related to the gauge of the wires...I would think the that the thicker the wire is , the heavier it is

[Farmhand]

Hi dR, The energy does travel up the resonator in a steep spiral and doesn't
follow the helix of the coil, it see's the resonator as a large diameter conductor
not a helical coil. This is well known and I mentioned it in the Tesla Jackson
thread long ago. And I am aware of the equal mass thing but that is not
practical when we want a higher primary to secondary turn ratio and not really necessary.

And on top of that the primary being equal weight to the secondary does not
make it's resonant frequency the same or a fraction or multiple. The primary
coil must be tuned with caps to do any of those unless you get very lucky.

I realize you didn't say that dR but matching the weight doesn't give you
automatically resonant coils. The tuning principals need to be still understood
to get the best from the coils.

So we see the primary being a quarter length of the secondary means very
little. And matching the weight doesn't make them tuned resonant either.

The transformer needs to be tuned, especially if pulsing not strictly at the
resonant frequency with solid state methods.

I can see all this on my scope. And test it with the function generator.

Cheers

P.S. Eric talks of coils that are about 100 turns about equal in height to
diameter and one primary turn, this may be OK for spark gap inputs, but it
won't work so well for solid state. And that does not take into account the
third coil.

I'm only making comment on this because it was mentioned again here.

It's not practical to make the primary the same weight as the secondary in
most cases and not necessary and I am yet to see any real world evidence it
is beneficial which would be very difficult to prove.


..

[Farmhand]

Have you thought that maybe the weight is related to the gauge of the wires...I would think the that the thicker the wire is , the heavier it is

Yes of course thicker wire will be heavier for the same length.

..

[dR-Green]

Hi dR, The energy does travel up the resonator in a steep spiral and doesn't
follow the helix of the coil, it see the resonator as a large diameter conductor
not a helical coil. This is well known and I mentioned it in the Tesla Jackson
thread long ago. And I am aware of the equal mass thing but that is not
practical when we want a higher primary to secondary turn ratio and not really necessary.

And on top of that the primary being equal weight to the secondary does not
make it's resonant frequency the same or a fraction or multiple. The primary
coil must be tuned with caps to do any of those unless you get very lucky.

I realize you didn't say that dR but matching the weight doesn't give you
automatically resonant coils. The tuning principals need to be still understood
to get the best from the coils.

So we see the primary being a quarter length of the secondary means very
little. And matching the weight doesn't make them tuned resonant either.

The transformer needs to be tuned, especially if pulsing not strictly at the
resonant frequency with solid state methods.

I can see all this on my scope. And test it with the function generator.

Cheers

I'm not saying that the weight has anything to do with making them resonant, at least not in the way we're talking about here. Then again if some physical object or material has a resonant frequency in itself, would that not remain constant regardless of its shape... You could make it into a box that resonates at a certain frequency, but the box still consists of the material. So two identical boxes of the same amount of material would be more closely tuned to each other in the physical realm than different amounts of material formed into the same shape cavity to resonate at the same frequency. They would in effect be tuned in an additional dimension than just shape, or length.

If you want different turns ratios you can just use different thickness of wire to keep the weight constant.

I just listened to the part of the video where Eric mentions the weight or volume matching before posting this, and with the skin effect he says it probably applies to equal effective surface area. "The simplest way to do it is by volume" IE plonk it on the scales and chop it when you have them matched With time and lot of wire it would be possible to figure out how much of what thickness you'd need for various lengths and weights etc.

[dR-Green]

Have you thought that maybe the weight is related to the gauge of the wires...I would think the that the thicker the wire is , the heavier it is

Yes, but I don't think that's an indication as to what gauge of wires to use, it just narrows the range depending on where you're starting from. There are a lot of different combinations you could use to get particular lengths and matched weights.

Anyway I don't think it's necessary in order to get results, but I do think that it forms a deeper level of tuning.

As for my spiral coils, being a complete experiment and having no idea how much wire I'd need or what gauge, it was the only indication - how much copper was in the primary. Make the secondary match it, and see how it turns out. I don't even know if they are tuned in any way whatsoever besides the weight, they just do what they do

[dR-Green]

P.S. Eric talks of coils that are about 100 turns about equal in height to
diameter and one primary turn, this may be OK for spark gap inputs, but it
won't work so well for solid state. And that does not take into account the
third coil.

I'm only making comment on this because it was mentioned again here.

It's not practical to make the primary the same weight as the secondary in
most cases and not necessary and I am yet to see any real world evidence it
is beneficial which would be very difficult to prove.


..

Yes maybe you're right about solid state. I don't see how it's not practical to match the weights though, personally I find that it makes it a bit easier, unless you're measuring the wire, in which case it would just be more work for more deliberate or focused results, or in other words maybe a lot more scientific because of the attention to details. If you're not measuring the wire then it's certainly a good alternative. Not doing any of these things and just winding whatever parts are at hand is just laziness

[Farmhand]

Yes maybe you're right about solid state. I don't see how it's not practical to match the weights though, personally I find that it makes it a bit easier, unless you're measuring the wire, in which case it would just be more work for more deliberate or focused results, or in other words maybe a lot more scientific because of the attention to details. If you're not measuring the wire then it's certainly a good alternative. Not doing any of these things and just winding whatever parts are at hand is just laziness

Measure the wire for what though ? There is no need to measure the wire.
Unless to measure the wire to determine the resonant frequency of the
secondary in relation to the desired disturbance in the circuit (the frequency you want from it).

It's not practical to have a primary 1/4 the length of the secondary either if a
high turn ratio between primary and secondary is desired. ie if I want to use
2000 volts and have a 1 to 1000 turn ratio so to get very high voltage then a
single turn primary would be huge very thick and impractical if done by weight
I could have I Kg of wire in the whole secondary (two coils).

With spirals the weight might work out well because of the way the turns get
progressively tighter. But still the weight alone will not determine the resonant
frequency of the primary, that is determined by it's inductance and
capacitance. Just because it weighs the same doesn't mean it will have the
same resonant frequency or a multiple or fraction.

I'm not saying it isn't a good idea if it works out as practical, I'm just saying
matching the weight will not necessarily automatically match the resonant
frequencies of the primary and the secondary. Nor will making the primary
1/4 the length of the secondary in my opinion.

Cheers

[Farmhand]

Here's a video of the bodgey coil winding jig I didn't make. It just a
video showing how I wound the secondaries with the wax paper and cordless drill.

HV Coil winding 1.wmv - YouTube

I need to build an input voltage doubler circuit and a new PWM type board
to handle the two primaries in parallel for this mirror transformer.
I should be able to use it up to 400 or 500 Khz air or oil cored or somewhat
less with a ferrite rod core ( I might be able to make that insertable )
even with the oil in the housing because the center of the core can remain
open right through. I'm going to stick with 12.5 layers at 1700 turns per side.
I think for my purposes that will do the job, 44 turns primary and 1700 secondary
should give me a conversion rate of 1 to 38.6 or much higher with resonance.

With 30 volts input that should give me 2318 volts minimum between the two secondary
HV terminals. I'll bolt all the wires to terminals outside the housing after
bringing them out through grommets including the center tap so I can connect it to
something if I want.

I only need a good enough voltage to charge a primary tank capacitor run a spark gap
at high frequency, like dR theorized in a previous post. Make the gap fire on the peaks.

Back to winding the second secondary.

Cheers

[dR-Green]

Measure the wire for what though ?

So you know in advance, or you're building it with certain parameters in mind, the same reason you measure the physical dimensions of the materials and know them before you begin. Practicality, though you don't really need to know any of these things to throw a coil together and get something out of it.

But personally I want to know because I have plans that will be based on experimental data and certain values of things, so first I need to experiment and gather that data

[Farmhand]

So you know in advance, or you're building it with certain parameters in mind, the same reason you measure the physical dimensions of the materials and know them before you begin. Practicality, though you don't really need to know any of these things to throw a coil together and get something out of it.

But personally I want to know because I have plans that will be based on experimental data and certain values of things, so first I need to experiment and gather that data

So what parameters did you know you would have before you wound your coils ? Did you know the what the resonant frequency would be ?

What exactly do you mean by "certain parameters" ?

Cheers

P.S. Have you checked to see if your primary is resonant at the same
frequency as the secondary and that both transformers are the same ?

[dR-Green]

So what parameters did you know you would have before you wound your coils ? Did you know the what the resonant frequency would be ?

What exactly do you mean by "certain parameters" ?

Cheers

P.S. Have you checked to see if your primary is resonant at the same
frequency as the secondary and that both transformers are the same ?

None, it was an experiment, built totally blind. That's what I don't want to be doing, and that's why I want to know these things. By certain parameters I mainly mean lengths of secondary and primary (and the frequency), their weights, and by getting familiar with the differences between various combinations I hope to be able to figure out what combination might work best. To begin with I seem to be more concerned with the amount of copper (whether that be length, weight or both) rather than number of turns, in the secondary at least. For example first on the list will be like the example coil I said earlier, these aren't necessarily the exact figures, but 1 metre primary and 9 metre secondary. Then 1 metre primary, 7 metre secondary, and so on. The purpose of which is to ultimately be able to build a 1/4 wavelength coil of a certain naturally occurring event, or source or whatever.

I haven't checked the resonance of these coils yet (after saying what I just said ), before I can do that now I'll be needing to glue up the receiver and assemble the function generator kit. The latest thing is that I'm fiddling with the 555 again and comparing things, which I think is good to know before thinking the coil is making any difference. And my spark gap actually burst into flames a few days ago when I was putting the power up and trying to get bigger discharges So I'm going to tweak that before I do any more I think...

I'm just saying
matching the weight will not necessarily automatically match the resonant
frequencies of the primary and the secondary. Nor will making the primary
1/4 the length of the secondary in my opinion.

Well then, be it know for any future readers or newcomers that I don't think that will happen either and that's not what it's about

[dR-Green]

Here's a video of the bodgey coil winding jig I didn't make. It just a
video showing how I wound the secondaries with the wax paper and cordless drill.

HV Coil winding 1.wmv - YouTube

Looking good I'll go back and read the details after coming up with a spark gap magnet separator that doesn't involve a flammable piece of car tyre

[Farmhand]

No probs dR, simple miss understanding, but I think resonance is what it's all about with Tesla coils.

Moving on. I mounted the one finished coil in the snake light board and
scoped it, it looks good so far that's with 100 volts ATT on the scope no
vertical gain and the probe is on 10X so it looks ok, I used only a very narrow
pulse width so as to keep the voltage down and try to fit it on the screen.

looks like 1000 volts peak to peak just pulsing the primary any old how, it'll be a
lot more when I set it up properly and double with both. It's only 53 Khz for
that shot.


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Here is the test bed.


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Cheers

P.S. I can poke things in the center of the coil from the side, it's good fun.

,,