Regarding The Ed Gray Motor

[Jetijs]

Hi Beshires
Those are some great news
Can you post your wiring schematic for your current setup?
Thanks!

[nat1971a]

awesome news beshires1.....well done!!!

[Inquorate]

And video!

But on youtube or I'll cry..

[Beshires1]

OK, here is the deal. I basically stopped working from the tube to the load and started working from the load to the tube. I thought a bout using a accessory relay after studying Fig 17 , in post #100 of this thread. He is showing separate capacitors for each firing position of the commutator.And if I can remember the drawing there is a separate coil with each capacitor. ( made me think "relay"). Guys, My earlier attempts to trigger a relay with high voltage failed. But rectifying the ignition coils output to DC and the way I had to do that changed something. I think having a charged capacitor sitting there had something to do with it. I'm Still unsure about this, But it works now. Any way its a very rough schematic. Remember that there is not two wires comming off of coil 1. I tried to show that, after I charged the cap I shut the system off and disconnected the High voltage lead from the Bridge. Then powered the system back on. This was to get a high voltage spark to jump to the trigger wire. (Simulating the commutator contacts aligning to fire to the load). Its rough but the only way I could do it without having built a commutator. After charging the capacitor, I can say for certain, that the capacitors were not charged in the Grey tube. It took 15 - 30 seconds to charge the capacitor to the strength to fire the popping coil. Charging several large capacitors to power the large coils in Greys motor would not happen using ignition coils.He charged his capacitors to fire the coils with low voltage Battery power. The capacitors would charge instantly and have more humph. During commutation the low voltage was removed and the commutator then aligned to discharge thru the coil(s). 23V low voltage (Battery)has more humph instantly than the 360V had and you have to don't wait for the charge.

"Popping Coil" 60V Capacitor Discharge.
compare: battery charged the large cap above instantly. Notice Grey also used larger caps than this.
Ignition_Coil_Charging_Capacitor_for_Popping_Coil. mov

Update: Please read this before trying to charge capacitors for the Grey Motor. This is as I thought and it will change everything! This was taken from Patent 3,890,587 a detailed description of how the commutator works.

[Electrotek]

After charging the capacitor, I can say for certain, that the capacitors were not charged in the Grey tube. It took 15 - 30 seconds to charge the capacitor to the strength to fire the popping coil. Charging several large capacitors to power the large coils in Greys motor would not happen using ignition coils.He charged his capacitors to fire the coils with low voltage Battery power. The capacitors would charge instantly and have more humph. During commutation the low voltage was removed and the commutator then aligned to discharge thru the coil(s). 23V low voltage (Battery)has more humph instantly than the 360V had and you have to don't wait for the charge.



[ATTACH]1946[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]1947[/ATTACH]

I think it take's you so long to charge the cap because you're using a very low frequency of pulses to and from the ignition coil. I've read that an ignition coil can operate at 200k pulses per second, and that's without removing the core. At this rate, you'd lose your LV cap to overvoltage as soon as you turn it on.

Looking at your attachments from the patent, the first one states the cap charges to an arc over voltage, relative to the gap. The second one mentions a high potential discharge from the caps. It doesn't sound like the caps are discharging 12V through the motor.

[Beshires1]

Electrotek, respectfully, what part of charging the caps from a battery do you not understand. Look at Patent # 3,890,548 . Read the first discription for Fig 1. Then Look at Fig 18, rotate the picture and take a snapshot of the page and save it as a picture. Now find in the patent the discription for Fig 18, the discription tells what the numbers in the drawing mean and importantly what the function is. Wootan said that the motor showed no sign of low voltage arcing. But the patent plainly shows and tells you that it had to. I think that this is the reason the contact protectant electrical lubriplate was used. And the patent plainly shows discharging the Caps thru the rotor coil and the stator coil to ..Ground. Oh yes, Grey called it a high potiential low voltage charge to the capacitors from the Battery. Somewhere (Not in the patent) it was said that he used 120 volts from 5 Batteries, this is more than enough to quickly charge those large DC caps he had. The Grey tube is a switching device and it recovered some energy from the caps discharge, to add supplemental energy back into the charging battery pack. If he could get 100 miles from one charged battery pack then switch to the other pack. that one should also get him 100 miles before recharging.Recovered energy would now have to get him 100 miles when the second pack ran out, I believe this was possible.

[Guest]

This is what I said a few weeks back, look at the first Gray patent from 1975!! That one is probably totally underestimated and the Gray tube is not properly explained in his patent and demands alot of hard-to-get info from the experimenter.

How about the transfer of energy from hte tube to the load?? In my opinion it should be by nodes-antinodes of dielectric material with conductor around. Many details still remain unclear in his late patents. Start with the old patent and then try the tube. Just like Beshires... Great job!

[Beshires1]

This is what I said a few weeks back, look at the first Gray patent from 1975!! That one is probably totally underestimated and the Gray tube is not properly explained in his patent and demands alot of hard-to-get info from the experimenter.

How about the transfer of energy from hte tube to the load?? In my opinion it should be by nodes-antinodes of dielectric material with conductor around. Many details still remain unclear in his late patents. Start with the old patent and then try the tube. Just like Beshires... Great job!

Thanks Gauss, I spent many ,many, many hours trying to get results from patent 4,595,975 Fig 17. Then I realized that what Bedini wrote was not a insult to us all but telling us that we were, in fact looking in the wrong place. Electrotek , you are right about also being able to charge the capacitors from the ignition coils. My setup was weak but I proved that it can be done.In patent 3,890,548 Grey says the capacitors can be charged from any source capable of producing a rectified low voltage DC. Turn your attention to Patent 3,890,548 Guys study and read it and you will be surprised to know it tells all.

[Electrotek]

Electrotek, respectfully, what part of charging the caps from a battery do you not understand. Look at Patent # 3,890,548 . Read the first discription for Fig 1. Then Look at Fig 18, rotate the picture and take a snapshot of the page and save it as a picture. Now find in the patent the discription for Fig 18, the discription tells what the numbers in the drawing mean and importantly what the function is. Wootan said that the motor showed no sign of low voltage arcing. But the patent plainly shows and tells you that it had to. I think that this is the reason the contact protectant electrical lubriplate was used. And the patent plainly shows discharging the Caps thru the rotor coil and the stator coil to ..Ground. Oh yes, Grey called it a high potiential low voltage charge to the capacitors from the Battery. Somewhere (Not in the patent) it was said that he used 120 volts from 5 Batteries, this is more than enough to quickly charge those large DC caps he had. The Grey tube is a switching device and it recovered some energy from the caps discharge, to add supplemental energy back into the charging battery pack. If he could get 100 miles from one charged battery pack then switch to the other pack. that one should also get him 100 miles before recharging.Recovered energy would now have to get him 100 miles when the second pack ran out, I believe this was possible.

In the pdf of the patent (3890548), page 13 column 10 line 40 reads: "Thus, when the voltage on capacitor 216 from charging circuit 219 is of a value which will arc over the air spaces between 222a and 223, and between 222b and 224, the capacitor 216 will discharge into the coil of electromagnet 213 to ground". This "charging circuit" includes an ignition coil and the voltage on the cap is a "high potential", even if the ignition coil is powered by a battery.

Page 10 column 3 line 40 reads: "Charging of the discharge capacitor or capacitors is accomplished by an electrical switching circuit wherein electrical energy from a battery or other source of d-c potential may be applied in alternating polarity to ignition coils or other voltage step-up arrangements from which a high voltage d-c potential is derived through rectification by diodes.
"The capacitor charging circuit comprises a pair of high frequency switchers which feed respective automotive-type ignition coils employed as step-up transformers. The "secondary" of each of the ignition coils provides a high voltage square wave to a half-wave rectifier to generate a high voltage output pulse of d-c energy with each switching alternation of the high frequency switcher."

[Beshires1]

Guys It really makes me mad, knowing that there are many, many intelligent people here, more so than myself, Who have had the wool pulled over their eyes,and led to believe that the ED Grey tube was the "Secret" the "Holy Grail," Ahem... "The Rosetta Stone", to the workings of the Ed Grey Motor. Peter used excerpts from patent 3,890,548 in his 1991 Keeley Net Conference. And spent countless hours studying Greys patents and he picked and chose only the things that he could translate their meaning to mean Over-unity. Greys patents never in any of them stated over-unity. Peter knew that this system recieved its Power from the Battery Packs. But he chose to disclose that the power came from the tube, a radiant effect. After patent 3,890,548, Grey recieved patent 4,595,975, This was Greys attempt to blurr the tell all of patent 3,890,548. Peter chose this patent because it was the one that was so mysterious, and misleading. If he could keep our focus on this patent he stands to make money selling his tells-you nothing video. I'm asking Peter to this: Why did you not disclose to us all the fact that the Battery was the real secret?If Wooten was any kind of mechanic , when he dissembled the motors, he could have looked at patent 3,890,548 and Known exactly what the contacts were for in the commutator.I think he knew and was part of the scam. When the motors were dissambled by Wooten you could clearly see from the photos signs of wear and arcing. In the keeley net conference video the same motors were too cleaned up, Did Wooten machine new common rings for the commutators? So they would not show the signs of arcing? Wooten himself claimed to be a machinist. Hey Aaron make this thread a Sticky.

[Electrotek]

The EMA-1 motor was built by Marvin Cole, in 1961, after conversations with Andre Popoff, one of Tesla's former assistants. Cole brought Gray on board as a salesman, and after Cole's unexpected demise, Gray took the technology and ran with it. But he didn't understand how it worked. When he filed the 1975 patent, he drew the circuit as best he could remember, since the FBI - acting for the FCC - had already confiscated the original Black Box equipment.

I've been studying this technology for quite a while, but I only recently fired up a CSET, for the very first time. Also, I've been thinking about Energy from the Zero Point for more than 30 years. I believe that the secret really is shown, but not told, in the *548 Patent, as well as the CSET circuit. But I'm not using a battery in my studies.

[Beshires1]

In the pdf of the patent (3890548), page 13 column 10 line 40 reads: "Thus, when the voltage on capacitor 216 from charging circuit 219 is of a value which will arc over the air spaces between 222a and 223, and between 222b and 224, the capacitor 216 will discharge into the coil of electromagnet 213 to ground". This "charging circuit" includes an ignition coil and the voltage on the cap is a "high potential", even if the ignition coil is powered by a battery.

Page 10 column 3 line 40 reads: "Charging of the discharge capacitor or capacitors is accomplished by an electrical switching circuit wherein electrical energy from a battery or other source of d-c potential may be applied in alternating polarity to ignition coils or other voltage step-up arrangements from which a high voltage d-c potential is derived through rectification by diodes.
"The capacitor charging circuit comprises a pair of high frequency switchers which feed respective automotive-type ignition coils employed as step-up transformers. The "secondary" of each of the ignition coils provides a high voltage square wave to a half-wave rectifier to generate a high voltage output pulse of d-c energy with each switching alternation of the high frequency switcher."

I have allready made mention that you are right about the source of the DC potiential , in another thread. Yes it do say:

Page 10 column 3 line 40 reads: "Charging of the discharge capacitor or capacitors is accomplished by an electrical switching circuit wherein electrical energy from a battery or other source of d-c potential"

The half wave rectified DC is used in the tube as the switcher as it states. Charging the caps, using the ignition coil can work as I have shown. But it will be slower, than charging from "DC on Tap" from the Batteries. What about at 10,000 rpm do you think the ignition coil can charge 9 large caps?

[Electrotek]

At 200,000 switching cycles per second, with available amps, the ignition coils should be able to charge the caps for that rotation rate, with one ignition coil per cap.

[Beshires1]

Find the amp rating for your ignition coil. most can output .025. Is that a milly or a pica?

[Aaron]

Beshires, comments

Beshires,

I appreciate your work but to insinuate that some of us had the wool pulled over our eyes is unnecessary. Also, mocking people (with your doctor jokes) that have studied Gray for years is also unnecessary especially when they put these technologies on the map and made it possible for you, me and the rest of us to easily know about it to begin with. They deserve nothing but respect and admiration in my opinion regardless of if the opinion of the analysis of what is happening is agreed with or not. My hat goes off to anyone that paves the way for the rest of us in regards to these technologies. Specifically, to Peter Lindemann for publishing about the Gray circuit - before he did that, how many people did you know that ever heard of Ed Gray? Almost nobody.

You seem to be totally unwilling to acknowledge the fact that with the HV cap discharging into a diode as I have explained, the HV cap is forced to discharge about 80% of its potential virtually INSTANTANEOUSLY. For different cap ratings and different setups, there will be varations in this "signature trace" on the scope but conceptually, it is common sense what it means. Go look at Greg's scope shots of what this looks like.

This is no small significance. Do you realize what this means? The tube, its setup and method especially pertaining to the location and direction of the diode causes the HV from the cap to discharge in a MUCH SHORTER period of time! This incredibly increases the energy that the coils receive when this potential snaps to the grids. When the diode shuts off, it is like creating an an insanely fast and sharp gradient between that HV potential and ground and that kind of steep slope especially a fast one causes the positive potential in the HV cap, which is charged to high voltage to be sucked right out of the cap in one way of putting it and as evidenced by scope shots of this effect that has already been proven out on the water sparkplug thread.

These types of sharp gradients - specifically the forcing of the cap to discharge instantanously - are known to violate closed system thermodynamics. As some like to mention these shockwaves and cavitations, I understand these concepts but have my own language that I like to use... the whole universe is pushing in on every little bit of potential from all directions. This snap pulls in potential with it from the environment adding to the system and what you wind up with at the coils is above and beyond what you had with the capacitor alone. Then conceptually at the coil being charged this fast this is a whole other place where extra potential can come into the circuit. Not over 100% efficient but certainly over 1.0 COP...more out that what the cap provided on its own.

A general note: the concept of 0V is irrelevant in potential differences. A potential difference is just that...a potential difference. -10v and +20v is a 30 volt spread. a POSITIVE 12v and a POSITIVE 3000v has a spread of 2988 volt spread...this is why the HV cap can jump to a positive is because it is still a lower potential connected to a common ground. The concept of seeing the LV rod as a "negative" is along the right lines but instead of seeing things in positive or negative...seeing them as high or lower potential, which are not necessarily positive or negative.

Bedini talks about his differential equations. I'm not going to pretend to be proficient at this kind of math because i'm not. But conceptually, in these circuits is that you simply are looking for all these potential differences. Anywhere you find them, there are many of them spread all around circuits and they can all be tapped and collected to be put to use. Where is the strongest potential difference in the Bedini charger? People see it at the collector but really it is the lead coming from the coil...it just happens to be connected right there at the collector. That doesn't even go to ground...it goes from there through a diode to the + of a battery and the - of that battery goes right back to the + of the input battery where that coil is connected to in the beginning...+ right back to +...why? It is all about the potential differences created and tapped in the right locations and the right times.

Anyway, the tube causes the strongest and most poweful effect for the entire Gray circuit - the HV cap discharges faster. 1 watt over 1 second is 1 joule of energy. If you take 1 watt and discharge it over 1/2 of a second what do you have? What if 1 watt is discharged over 1/10 of a second? Over 1 microsecond? and so forth.... What if you just take the potential in a AA alkaline battery and discharge all of it in one trillionth of one trillionth of a nanosecond? Enough to vaporaize a whole galaxy? That isn't too much of an exaggeration in concept. It is all about locking TIME POTENTIAL (the potential for time to exist) into that impulse.

This is the whole point of the concept of IMPULSE energy. You want to compress it into the smallest blip of time that you can and the tube perfectly accomplishes this because of how the diode shuts off. It is a profound effect. The water sparkplug circuit perfectly does this as well.

If you study Gray and his references, you will understand 100% perfectly well that the "magic" to the system is EXACTLY the IMPULSE from the capacitive discharge. How can you have the shortest impulse?

I'll repost this here for your convenience:

This is without the diode effect with straight capacitive discharge.

This is WITH the diode arranged as I explained. 70-80 percent of the potential is discharged instantaneously and then the last 20-30% is slower.

Thanks Greg for showing this in the water sparkplug thread.




diode increases HV cap discharge speed
I'm reposting these messages from Greg - from the Water Sparkplug thread. I thought Lee posted the first scope shot on this but I guess it was Greg. This shows that with the diode, the discharge from the cap increases to virtually instantaneous...you can see this clearly.

A great majority of the cap discharges instantaneously (straight line coming down) then it slows towards the end. Without the diode, it is a slower steady discharge over time.

Here is with the right circuit:
YouTube - Gray Tube Test
It is definitely not a "hv spark" and when the grid is connected, this is what popped a magnet from the coil.

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09-02-2008, 08:54 PM
gmeast vbmenu_register("postmenu_28271", true);
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The Effect's Signature!
Hi everybody,

I have now configured my Water Spark Plug circuit to trigger off of the line sine wave. That means that the circuit is operating at 60 Hz. It was only after I got it running this fast was I able to connect the characteristic "SNAP" or "CRACK" with the oscilloscope trace. I will post a video that will show the signature wave form appearing and disappearing in synchronization with the characteristic sound as the circuit misses an occasional beat.

But first I will show you the O-Scope traces. You have already seen them if you viewed my last video. The attachments below are the scope captures that appeared in the video. The Cap discharge trace with the 'crook' in it was thought to be the trace where the HV diode is merely included in the circuit (which it is), and the 'smoother' trace is without the HV diode (which it is). But further, however, the trace with the crook in it IS the signature of the effect ... or more clearly ... the CROOK itself IS the signature of the effect.

This is all very exciting! I will compile the video as quickly as I can so you all can see that the effect actually has a 'face'.

Thank you. Peace,

Greg
Attached Thumbnails

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09-03-2008, 08:16 PM
gmeast vbmenu_register("postmenu_28386", true);
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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new video of signature trace
Hi all,

As I said I would do in a recent reply, I have posted a new video showing the unique wave form characteristic of the water spark plug circuit discharge cycle. Please note the time period in the video is 250u-sec per division so the signature is not casually apparent. My new Gotoluc-Lindemann circuit version operates at 60 Hz and is powered by two Mosfet packages triggered by integral opto-isolated inputs. These inputs are excited by two external resistor divider networks phased 180 deg. from each other via the full bridge rectifier. At present I am still limited to lower voltages and currents by the inrush ratings of the Mosfets. I will be reverting to triacs for the generator set tests however. They have an 800V rating.

The new video is located here:

YouTube - sgnature trace

Thanks. Peace,

Greg