12,000% More - Open System Physics & Thermodynamics by Mike Waters

[Dingus]

This looks like an ordinary impeller fan with a somewhat concave cone in the middle.

I'd like to try this out, maybe use it as a water turbine in the future.

[Aaron]

Mike Waters

This looks like an ordinary impeller fan with a somewhat concave cone in the middle.

I'd like to try this out, maybe use it as a water turbine in the future.

Those actually will work to a certain level.

In Mike Water's presentation, you'll learn that the shape of the blades is very important as well as a few other modifications to have an optimum design so it is definitely much more than just a squirrel cage fan.

[marathonman]

Amazing

It funny, years ago in the later 80's i cam up with an idea to put a temperature gauge on the out side of a refrigerator in my marketing class and also a wing shape front face wind turbine. i was told i was crazy by my marketing teacher...... guess who has the patent.

imagine that.

MM

[Dingus]

Those actually will work to a certain level.

In Mike Water's presentation, you'll learn that the shape of the blades is very important as well as a few other modifications to have an optimum design so it is definitely much more than just a squirrel cage fan.

Is there a CAD file included, or are the dimensions used detailed in the presentation/powerpoint?

I wanted to build a portable wind turbine for a project I'm working on, but the vacuum created behind the impeller would make too much drag to mount on a moving object. But it gave me an idea for a generator I've never seen before. If/when I get around to making it, I'll make a thread about it.

[Aaron]

turbine design

Is there a CAD file included, or are the dimensions used detailed in the presentation/powerpoint?

I wanted to build a portable wind turbine for a project I'm working on, but the vacuum created behind the impeller would make too much drag to mount on a moving object. But it gave me an idea for a generator I've never seen before. If/when I get around to making it, I'll make a thread about it.

A CAD file is not included.

A cowling can be used to manipulate the air flow moving out the blades and to the back of the turbine.

[Dingus]

A CAD file is not included.

So does it actually give the details on the shape of the blades, or just say that it's very important, then leave out any way to perfectly replicate it?

A cowling can be used to manipulate the air flow moving out the blades and to the back of the turbine.

Wouldn't that reduce efficiency significantly?

[Aaron]

turbine design

So does it actually give the details on the shape of the blades, or just say that it's very important, then leave out any way to perfectly replicate it?

Wouldn't that reduce efficiency significantly?

The shape of the blades are explained - at least what they need to accomplish. Air goes from inside the turbine and is sped up as it passes the blades. The turbine, when built as intended, is a 3 stage air compressor.

I do not know if that will reduce efficiency or not and on a moving application, the wind exiting the blades will be blown to the rear so there probably is not the same amount of vacuum there compared to a fixed application.

[Dingus]

Then it might be worth looking into using cyclorotor-like blade pitch control system. Could also be useful for converting side-force into forward-thrust, or balancing any undesirable gyroscopic effects.

[Aaron]

replication

Then it might be worth looking into using cyclorotor-like blade pitch control system. Could also be useful for converting side-force into forward-thrust, or balancing any undesirable gyroscopic effects.

I would do it 100% exactly as Mike Waters specifies first so it is an authentic duplication of his work, but I'm sure it will be on ongoing project.

[Dingus]

I'd do it 100% exactly as Mike Waters specifies first, but I've yet to find any specifications to work with aside from it being a squirrel cage. I figured the video would go into more detail, but you've made it pretty clear that it doesn't. Being able to vary the angle of the blades seems like my best option.

[grumblenuts]

Then it might be worth looking into using cyclorotor-like blade pitch control system. Could also be useful for converting side-force into forward-thrust, or balancing any undesirable gyroscopic effects.

I like the way you think, but Aaron's instincts better in this case. Controlling the blade pitch is easy to imagine, to me at least, and seems like a natural fit with trying airfoil shaped blades. But right away, doing the former destroys the simple, lightweight structural integrity of thing and adds moving moving parts to worry about breaking and rusting.

Likewise, changing the blade shape from simply flat may or may not prove slightly advantageous at potentially great relative cost. As Aaron seems to sense, it's analogous to neither an airplane wing nor propeller*. I believe the acceleration discussed is not much and mainly attributable to vacuum pressure from behind the rotor. So in addition to turning due to direct wind pressure, a bit more air is being sucked around the edge from behind.

{* ask me about propellers and anemometers)

Keep in mind this was designed to work at low wind speed, whereas lift implies improved efficiency as velocity increases front to back or, in other words, high-wind/fast-airplane. While the wind obviously goes from front to back of the whole thing, the bulk of air that passes through the blades locally has to travel radially from inside to out.

Add the increased difficulty of making and mounting airfoils compared to slats and I seriously doubt any net advantage is achievable.

Even the evident bend in the blades of a squirrel cage fan could be entirely attributable to minimizing weight and material, i.e. lower manufacturing cost. A simple sheet metal bend adds significant linear strength enabling lower mass. However, Mike Waters agreeing or no, it doesn't seem likely to be quite as efficient at blowing or sucking air. I think motors having somewhat more HP than might otherwise be needed are fitted. Not their electric bill! Their main concern being to keep the price of their bathroom fans slightly less than their nearest competitor's on Home Depot's shelves.

It's perfectly natural to always wanna f**k with success rather than just KISS it (keep it simple stupid).

[Dingus]

I like to brainstorm more than I like to actually do things. But I do tend to over-complicate things, but that's ok until I actually get around to building something. I'm far to lazy to ever build something as complicated as a cyclorotor system to test the fan. I currently lack any good means of experimenting with this turbine, so I'm not going to bother until I can get all the information I need to accurately replicate it.

I never intended to use the turbine as a propulsion system, but I had concerns about the drag it'd create since I hoped on putting a small wind turbine on an electric scooter so I could recharge the batteries even if they get low while I'm far from an outlet. I did recently salvage a squirrel cage & motor from a microwave, but it's small & I'd probably also be better off finding a DC motor.

[grumblenuts]

I had concerns about the drag it'd create since I hoped on putting a small wind turbine on an electric scooter

That reminds me. With no load, as I've operated (what I'll continue referring to as) "the thing" here so far and suggested above, I envision the air mostly traveling directly from the center as it passes through the blades (or "slat ring" as I call it). It can't just stop instantaneously and begin travelling perpendicularly with the wind. It must keep going outward some distance before doing otherwise.

This not only increases the "drag" you're so sensibly worried about, but effectively increases the overall diameter of the obstacle presented to the wind or the "working" diameter if you will.

Significantly, I would think, and even more as wind speed increases. The bigger effective diameter, in turn, causing more back pressure against the wind, resulting in more air passing through the blades, more potential power (for a fixed generator purpose). And explaining, to some degree, Waters claims of it doing the equivalent of larger diameter traditional rotors.

Now, when I do finally get around to actually "using" the thing (loading it in other words), the radiating air will now be resisted in significant measure at an oblique angle or encouraged to swirl* if you will. The effective diameter will decrease somewhat, likely 50% less than the maximum increase at optimal efficiency. The "Velocity Profile" Aaron shared above actually confirms that the diameter indeed remains effectively increased under load.

{* - create a clockwise or counterclockwise vortex band, depending upon which way the blades are mounted)

Just needed practically any old excuse to put that bucket of yammer down on virtual paper.

So thanks!

[grumblenuts]

I keep saying "air", but obviously the analysis would apply with "the thing" placed in any fluid, though I imagine any "gyroscopic effects" to be even less of a concern than the little bit they currently appear to be on my version.

[Dingus]

I was reading about Wind turbine syndrome, the negative health effects of infrasound caused by wind turbines & ended up thinking about Mike Waters's design again. Does this design produce any more or less infrasound than a traditional design?